/p Blood Price used, WHMs do not use Holy for 15 seconds <se.1>

[Mutemutt]

I'd find the macro really annoying but I know what it's like to starve on mp because the mob is getting stun locked. I don't like to wait around for mp before every pull and sometimes I end a pull with low mp but figure blood price will cover the next one. It made for some messy pulls. So whenever I go as whm for these dungeons, if I see blood price go up, I just wait before I start using holy.

[eagledorf]

DRK WANTS and sometimes NEEDs to be hit.

Yeah, but Holy's stun wears off after like 7 seconds. Either you wait 3 GCD to use Blood Price or they wait 6 to do anything effective at all (and their DPS rotation should be pretty predictable to you after 1-2 pulls).

If they're all stunned with Holy and you're DAing your AD, you're just being bad. The WHM doesn't need your measly self-heal when they're about to get 2-3 free Regen ticks and likely Assize or Assylum (or are sitting on a Tetra/Bene). It's like a PLD Flashing 3 times in a row and popping Sentinel at the pull and then having blind resist and no cooldown when the Stun wears off or a WAR popping Bloodbath during the stun or whatever. You have always had to adjust as you learn the healer you've been paired with.

[Imoen]

Yeah, but Holy's stun wears off after like 7 seconds. Either you wait 3 GCD to use Blood Price or they wait 6 to do anything effective at all (and their DPS rotation should be pretty predictable to you after 1-2 pulls).

If they're all stunned with Holy and you're DAing your AD, you're just being bad. The WHM doesn't need your measly self-heal when they're about to get 2-3 free Regen ticks and likely Assize or Assylum (or are sitting on a Tetra/Bene). It's like a PLD Flashing 3 times in a row and popping Sentinel at the pull and then having blind resist and no cooldown when the Stun wears off or a WAR popping Bloodbath during the stun or whatever. You have always had to adjust as you learn the healer you've been paired with.

It's nothing like PLD flashing 3 times not even close, imagine scorn costing mass amounts of MP as well and get rid of Sheltron you can't have that either.

Also Idk what your point on bloodbath was, no other tank is effected by holy, pulling slower to compensate for a healer that can't keep up maybe. (Edit: I see what you meant after reading your next comment after this one, what you meant about the bloodbath thing. I still don't understand the relevance. If a healer is spaming holy of coarse I'm not going to pop bloodprice, that would defeat the point. Again I was speaking as if bloodprice is already up, why would a healer interrupt that intentionally?")

Besides popping Bloodprice while your running into a pack is pretty common - you want those hits. healer is usually behind you, yes you can learn the healer but if they are non stop spamming stun until resist on every single pull through out the entirety of a dungeon don't be surprised when mobs peel off , and we have to slow down between pulls. it is just how the job functions.

Anyway I'm not here to argue, the point is, DRK wants to be hit. We can compare and dance all day. They could drop darkside and go only grit, just pray you don't have blms or smns in the party.

[eagledorf]

If we're comparing DAing AD or not, it's exactly like Blind since you can hold aggro with Unleash. It's even more like Bloodbath (it'll all be overheal if you pop it at the pull on WAR and the WHM stuns)

Prioritizing the WHM is superior for DPS so you should just do what tanks have always done and sort yourself out around if they DPS or not. It's not hard at all to count ~4 GCD before using Blood Price, which is when a typical WHM rotation (Swift Holy, Aero III, Holy, Holy) will have the stun drop off.

[Imoen]

If we're comparing DAing AD or not, it's exactly like Flashing since you can hold aggro with Unleash. In fact, it's less significant in healing demands to AD once than to spread your Flashing.

Prioritizing the WHM is superior for DPS so you should just do what tanks have always done and sort yourself out around if they DPS or not. It's not hard at all to count ~4 GCD before using Blood Price, which is when a typical WHM rotation (Swift Holy, Aero III, Holy, Holy) will have the stun drop off.

You do realize your argument goes both ways right?

If I have bloodprice up already, before a whm decides to holy spam cuz lets be honest, they don't all holy spam. Which is what this was all about.

I really f'n hate metaphors, but If I'm in line at an ATM and i'm just about to swipe my card and you just come up in front of me and swipe your card... thats not rude I suppose.

I'm pretty sure we were assuming bloodprice was ALREADY up BEFORE the holy spam. Or at least I was.

There is 0 reason the tank can't adapt but my point is there is 0 reason a healer can't too.

And we can agree to disagree on the flash / unleash thing.

[eagledorf]

How so? Do you have to stop AoEing entirely for 15 seconds if you wait 10 seconds to use Blood Price? Do you have a 220 potency AoE?

I honestly don't think you should be popping Blood Price while you pull because you're getting hit by fewer mobs than if you use it after pulling. If you dropped Grit and turned on Blood Weapon at the end of the previous pull and succeeded with Soul Survivor and used C&S for MP you should have the MP to pull several packs without needing it, especially with the current dungeons that have like 2 pulls before the boss.

For the very first pull of the dungeon, yes it could really suck, but after that you should know if your healer will Holy spam.

Well, to be fair to you there are some healers that can't seem to decide what they want to do. That's extremely annoying to deal with and they tend to DPS without Cleric Stance on. This macro might be extremely good if you get stuck with one of them.

[Imoen]

Blood weapon only gives MP on hit. I don't see how using that between pulls helps.

Non of your questions make sense to me, dps is not relevant to basic manners and basic battle field and party awareness.

And Carve and spit, is not relevant to my example at least ... as it is not available at level 59 (my fault for not clarifying I was in Library, leveling to 60)

Bloodprice is a kingpin move in DRKs arsnel, healers can 100% of the time know that they are going to be using it, on the other hand HOLY is not.. I have no way of knowing untill it is already happening.

I use bloodprice right as I am about to settle (not when im dragging mobs) Unmend/unleash during gather > Salted earth > bloodprice> cont> ad or unleash add darkarts ONLY if the return is high enough that is when I'm going to be spending the most MP. If I'm in the middle of my MP drain and someone interrupts the income then ya, if I learn later I don't need to do that, then fine, but if I'm dry I'm dry and I gotta wait.

In the right situations I run out of MP on pld - blm/smn combo, a damn good dragoon plus a damn good summoner. I don't see how you would think that it wouldn't be extra hard for dark which costs are way higher in the MP department.

[DreamWeaver]

From a WHM PoV :
It is way easier to start an AoE pull with Holy compared to "wait 15 seconds for your precious Blood Price" then Holy.

At the start :
1) You have stoneskin up.
2) Most tanks pop mitigation during the end of the pull, right before the AoE hell is unleashed.
3) With proper timing, Holy will land the moment everything is gathered (means those mobs lagging behind won't have a chance to attack the tank and is stunned straight away).

After "15 seconds for your precious blood price" :
1) No more stoneskin.
2) No more mitigation (You can pop more, but good luck with the next pull!!)
3) Everything and its mother is hitting you at full force.

And for those that believe your AD spam > Holy Spam damage, that's nonsense and any non mathematically challenged person can see that.

[Velox]

You also have to account for situation. Holy is really only mana-efficient if there are 6 or more enemies alive. If you're running with a DRK who is going to utilize BP, it's best that the WHM doesn't really DPS at all outside of Aero III and Stone III spam. If a WHM is going to wait 15 seconds to holy, then by that time a chunk of the mobs are going to be dead from the DRK and DPS, as well as the Stone III spam. By then it's pointless to even use Holy since it becomes a waste of MP.

Ideally, if a DRK is starting a pull with no MP and relying on BP to refill it for the entire 15 seconds, then that DRK is slowing the run down immensely. Not saying that method is bad, but optimally it should be avoided. It's no different than a PLD starting a pull with no CDS ready. It can be done, but shouldn't be done.

[DreamWeaver]

I admit I'm not intimately familiar with the inner workings of a DRK, so I gotta ask :
Can it not be done the opposite as well? DRK chill on his MP, while let us WHMs unleash holy on Earth on those mobs?

Any WHM worth his/her salt will be able to pace themselves nicely and have sufficient MP for every single pull (and we don't have to rely on outside factors as well!! Unlike the problems you DRKs seem to be having where Holy = No MP = sad DRK).