Wanderer’s Minuet, Gauss Barrel and Positive Gameplay Additions

[Alahra]

Honestly there is no oGCD awkwardness for MCH imo

Even outside of oGCD resets for BRD, oGCDs are akward in terms of timing with WM/GB up. Without them up (and for other classes), you have a larger window of time in which to hit them than you do because of the length of the cast time, which is longer than the "animation" lock for most GCD abilities. If you don't queue your oGCDs exactly perfectly with WM/GB up, they clip into the next GCD, whereas you have a little bit more room for them under normal (non-cast-time) functionality.

That's the awkwardness I was referring to. The "rhythm" is off from every other class in the game and off from the rhythm MCH/BRD have without WM/GB.

[RiceisNice]

Even outside of oGCD resets for BRD, oGCDs are akward in terms of timing with WM/GB up. Without them up (and for other classes), you have a larger window of time in which to hit them than you do because of the length of the cast time, which is longer than the "animation" lock for most GCD abilities. If you don't queue your oGCDs exactly perfectly with WM/GB up, they clip into the next GCD, whereas you have a little bit more room for them under normal (non-cast-time) functionality.

That's the awkwardness I was referring to. The "rhythm" is off from every other class in the game and off from the rhythm MCH/BRD have without WM/GB.

You can queue up a oGCD as your cast time finishes up, it's not that overly difficult. You can still do one oGCD inbetween each weaponskill with a 1.5 second casttime. The problem comes when you try to do two oGCDs inbetween weaponskills with cast times (or otherwise, a 1 second opportunity, which is given with the [GCD 2.5] - [cast time 1.5]. A machinist with rapid fire can still weave oGCDs just fine inbetween each weapon skill (which at that point has no cast time and the GCD is 1 second) without ever clipping into another weaponskill unless you doubled dipped.

The only exception to above (which is practically a bug) is if you use a straight shot right after a HS that gave you the proc; the proc doesn't get used up and you still have cast times on SS, but for some reason it still delays your oGCD use when it otherwise doesn't.

[Alahra]

You can queue up a oGCD as your cast time finishes up, it's not that overly difficult.

I didn't say it was difficult. I said it was awkward with the respect to the timing for the other classes in the game. There is enough time for one oGCD but there is less time than the other classes get because the 1.5 cast time is a bit longer than the point at which, during the normal GCD, oGCDs become available for use. That change in flow makes WM and GB "feel" awkward even before you consider Bloodletter, Flaming Arrow, etc. BRD is more awkward than MCH because of those things (though MCH still has the same awkwardness present with Flaming Arrow from its turrets, which do need to be moved mid-fight sometimes), but the fundamental awkwardness with oGCDs from GB/WM is present in both.

Edit: This is mainly of note because of latency, as even slight latency can make ability queuing less reliable.

[Warlyx]

Warrior - We got a DPS stance, a 500 potency hit and a 1300 potency self-cure.
Paladin - We got damage shields, guaranteed block and non-enmity combos
Black Mages - We got enochian to buff our damage, the means to keep it up 100% of the time, and a mechanic that requires us to add an extra layer of complexity to astral/umbral (refreshing enochian and maintain astral since IV doesn't refresh it)
Dragoon - We got BotD to buff our jump damage, the means to maximize uptime, and a skill to lower the duration since we don't waste uptime.
Ninja - We got enmity reducing skills and a skill to extension our huton, allowing us to use an extra damage ninjitsu. We also gained positionals so we cannot stay on the rear the entire time.
Monk - We got better means to maintain, build and use up GL3 for the times that bosses decide to bugger off, as well as ways to minimize our downtime due to the loss of GL3.
BRD - We got cast times and a couple of oGCDs. The cast time also interfere with our 2.0 traits.

you forgot drg battle litany buff , whm now have more dmg and instant healing spells , SCH have better aoe healing and more support skills , even a CD for more raw healing + 3 aetherflow , and some support spells...

in the end all the jobs got improvements in the areas that were more needed. Brd on the other hand....ugh...

[RiceisNice]

I didn't say it was difficult. I said it was awkward with the respect to the timing for the other classes in the game. There is enough time for one oGCD but there is less time than the other classes get because the 1.5 cast time is a bit longer than the point at which, during the normal GCD, oGCDs become available for use. That change in flow makes WM and GB "feel" awkward even before you consider Bloodletter, Flaming Arrow, etc. BRD is more awkward than MCH because of those things (though MCH still has the same awkwardness present with Flaming Arrow from its turrets, which do need to be moved mid-fight sometimes), but the fundamental awkwardness with oGCDs from GB/WM is present in both.

We have different perspectives of whats awkward then. If you're not actively trying to fit two oGCDs into one weapon skill cycle, theres no break of flow or clipping of oGCDs. You're able to use an oGCD as soon as the cast time finishes, animation or not (except again in that scenario with SS I mentioned earlier). A way to put it into perspective is to see it as this; "You cannot queue a skill within .5 seconds of using another skill, cast time or not". Which holds true for all jobs, including melee and casters like blm (they can start channeling fire I right after it finishes casting, as well as use a fire III right after a hardcasted fire I, but they cannot start a cast or even use a instant cast right after using an oGCD such as manawall, or use an oGCD right after an instant cast).

As for the flame arrow/turret thing ,you can't bring up the targetting recetitle while casting, but it's still the same principle; you can place it down immediately after the cast time ends with no pause inbetween. And honestly, I've gotten used to it at least as far as turrets is concerned (not so much flame arrow because you have to actually aim it, but even then you can usually eyeball it.

Edit: This is mainly of note because of latency, as even slight latency can make ability queuing less reliable.

Alot of my perspectives comes from without latency (which honestly makes this a legit issue). With latency though, every job gets affected to some degree (esp DRG when it comes to getting theit WT or FnC buff), it's not exclusive to BRD.

you forgot drg battle litany buff , whm now have more dmg and instant healing spells , SCH have better aoe healing and more support skills , even a CD for more raw healing + 3 aetherflow , and some support spells...

in the end all the jobs got improvements in the areas that were more needed. Brd on the other hand....ugh...

Giving a party buff isn't exciting or changing to their gameplay, and certainly would not be the first thing I'd mention to someone I wanted to tell a former 2.0 DRG player what they gained.. When you're looking at a expansion of all things, you want the existing jobs to evolve on top of what they are already doing before, whether it's filling in their downfalls (MNK's damage plummeting on down time for example, they gave them more tools to minimize the detriments of that) or building upon their role and existing playstyle (which is easily all the jobs, debatable with the likes of NIN and especially BRD

[Alahra]

We have different perspectives of whats awkward then.

We probably do, though I'm not the first person to bring up the issue of the timing with GB/WM compared to the timing without them.

[RiceisNice]

We probably do, though I'm not the first person to bring up the issue of the timing with GB/WM compared to the timing without them.

It's not so much the timing directly, but it's the interaction of skills that makes the timing the problem (specifically BRD). To me, not being able to use 2 oGCDs in one weaponskill was not the end of the world provided my job was not designed to do so (such as encouraging you to keep oGCDs off cooldown so it can refresh from a proc)

[Alahra]

It's not so much the timing directly, but it's the interaction of skills that makes the timing the problem (specifically BRD). To me, not being able to use 2 oGCDs in one weaponskill was not the end of the world provided my job was not designed to do so (such as encouraging you to keep oGCDs off cooldown so it can refresh from a proc)

The problem's definitely worse for BRD than it is for MCH, but I've mostly given up playing MCH because the difference in the rhythm means I can't just pick it up again after primarily focusing on another job for awhile. There's just too much muscle memory with regard to oGCD for other jobs for me, and I have to retrain it every time I decide to play MCH for some reason (whether for a change of pace or because some FC group already has two melee). I'll probably be even less likely to play BRD than MCH since they have even *more* oGCD stuff to worry about.

[Lemuria]

theres no break of flow or clipping of oGCDs. You're able to use an oGCD as soon as the cast time finishes, animation or not (except again in that scenario with SS I mentioned earlier).

I'm not sure if you're playing the same job as I am, but I've noticed a TON of clipping due to the animations for things like barrage, Blood for Blood and Raging Strikes being used after a weaponskill in Minuet. This only becomes even more pronounced when you're using bloodletter regularly.

So, just for the sake of clarity, please don't pretend that an issue doesn't exist just because you're one the exceptions.

[Judge_Xero]

@Alahra - Great write up and thorough investigation of the endgame DPS values. I like how you took an average of various players.

With your various examples of single boss vs multi target fights you can see where SE attempted to use the stances to play on the ranged classes strengths in order to make them more competitive DPS wise, without making them OP. So we can agree there was a decent trade-off for lesser mobility despite the feeling that BRD/MCN got shafted.

I am really hoping for them to make adjustments to the fluidity of BRD and to create a more distinct identity between BRD/MCN.