Four Ways to Die - why the Tank Meta feels "off".

[Sida]

Hmm, I'm wondering if SE should improve healer DPS and healing on tanks so that beefy tanks can contribute to the party by putting less pressure on healers. Overall team dps will then rise as a result and make beefy tanks viable as a support build.

And did not know about the 20k hp tier for tanks.

Please no, that is backwards. I mean, the part of healer dps. It's like saying "we don't feel being dps should be part of the tank job, so let's make it bigger part of another job it doesn't really belong to."

What I'd rather see is that fights would actually start dealing damage enough that a) tanks need to be tanky and b) healers still need to concentrate on healing. I recall in some other game where even the trash mobs, if giving few hits to dps meant dead dps. Here about any dps can shrug of at least one mob because they just don't hit for all that much. And giant pulls are possible for the same reason. The mobs just don't hit all that hard.

[Yaichiro]

I think the best solution to improve the situation is to allow VIT increase physical/magic defence instead of improving HP. For a game that has healers it is pointless to improve HP beyond the threshold that you need to avoid a single hit death whereas defence mitigates all incoming damage and thus incoming damage can be made hard to allow a proper use for wall tanks.

[Anova]

Please no, that is backwards. I mean, the part of healer dps. It's like saying "we don't feel being dps should be part of the tank job, so let's make it bigger part of another job it doesn't really belong to."

What I'd rather see is that fights would actually start dealing damage enough that a) tanks need to be tanky and b) healers still need to concentrate on healing. I recall in some other game where even the trash mobs, if giving few hits to dps meant dead dps. Here about any dps can shrug of at least one mob because they just don't hit for all that much. And giant pulls are possible for the same reason. The mobs just don't hit all that hard.

I think it's just because there's a huge jump in gear. I don't know if you remember running Neverreap or Fractal in i160 gear, but healers and tanks really had to be careful changing between dps and tank/heal stances. Now, everybody is geared about 30 to 40 levels above it and are just blazing past it, so I can't say this was how the dungeon was intended to be run. Also, if we make the raid hits that big, there's no way the tanks are going to survive them in the earliest gear stages without using holmgang, hallowed ground, or living dead. And you know the CDs on those won't allow consecutive tank busters that would wear the healer down.

Anyway, the dps healer idea was just a quick suggestion based on the presumption that defense and VIT is like accuracy. Once you reach a certain value, any more becomes useless (or greatly diminished returns) for that dungeon. However, it's true that healers don't need to worry about letting tanks die and can have longer dps bursts with higher hp tanks. I just suggested that if a tank stacks VIT for reduced damage and hp, a healer could be able to use that extra buffer to deal out the difference in damage equal to the difference between a full VIT and STR build. It's not going to be a big difference, but one that simply makes VIT feasible in a party situation (perhaps more so in specific cases where aoe or matk is better). Healers do not do that much as much damage as a tank currently and have a lot of mp problems when they dps. We would need to make heals more effective on VIT tanks too (possibly making VIT a stat that increases healing power when receiving) to help make VIT tanks offset the extra mp costs of healer dps.

The other options are that tanks passively reflect damage based on VIT, or healers lose some of their mitigation abilities so tanks need more VIT. Neither solution is perfect though as one turns VIT in to a damage stat and the other removes a great deal of complexity and nuance to the healer class. Increasing overall damage or decreasing tank pdef/mdef is a possibility, but one that's easy to overcome with overgearing (which is the current problem).

Also for the idea of VIT increasing defense, there were previous systems that used VIT as flat damage reductions and PDEF/MDEF as percent damage reduction. Obviously, the calculations are different in FFXIV, but that might be one suggestion to promote the use of VIT. It still runs in to the problem of a soft cap for survivability though and the high demand to meet dps checks.

[Kydi]

The fundamental issue with VIT, even if it were to give a passive defence increase, is that you still only need enough to survive the tank buster, with any more being essentially wasted. I do agree that this would be a very nice thing to have (passive damage reduction) but it would have to come with a change in meta to remove the tank buster mechanic and replace by continuous high damage output from bosses. With a meta designed around spikes, there's really no need to gear for anything but surviving those spikes.

On the original point, I would categorize myself as the type of tank who likes to be the immovable object. However, I am more than happy to be pushed to dps as hard as possible when off tank. In that instance I think it's perfectly valid to expect tanks to dps. Where I think the issue lies (with the meta, not with the players) is that the focus is on spending time outside of tank stance whilst still having the boss wail on you. The easy solution would be to up the boss damage to such a level that 2 hits outside of tank stance will kill you, and add a substantial damage reduction to all tank stances. However, I can understand that this might be met with resistance from many tanks, so probably wouldn't happen.

[Duelle]

This is causing quite a bit of friction in the tank community. The majority of tank players love it - tanks are now in a state where they're very dynamic to play and you can truly compete as a DPS. Players who hated low damage tanks in other MMOs are flocking to the Warrior and Dark Knight because suddenly they're able to play as a tank but as a class that feels like the DPS classes they enjoy.

What's pulling people to those classes are the aesthetics. The gameplay may become part of the reason once they level it enough, but some people just want to be the guy with the big axe/sword. It's a popular aesthetic and I can't fault them for wanting to sign up for that reason.

This said, using DPS as a lure is a losing proposition due to the inherent nature of tanking. You play a tank to sacrifice damage for survivability. That's the core of the role and supersedes anything else you want to add to it. You don't roll a tank for e-peen deepz or to top meters. You do it because you want to be the one to somehow survive the 100-foot tall firelord's stomp.

The minority though are silently seething.

As I said in the reddit thread, calling people who don't like the meta a minority is disingenuous. There's a difference between adhering to the meta for the sake of progression and actually liking it, and there are plenty of people who hate the meta but follow it because they want raid clears.

You look at the Warrior, and you see a hulking berserker with a huge axe. A complete brute, raw strength and unrefined damage. What would your "average" Warrior player want to feel when playing their character? They'd want to feel like a threat. They'd want to feel scary to their opponents, to feel that every slow swing of their axe was capable of massive damage. They'd obviously want to feel tough too, but the archetype of the berserk warrior charging into battle with no shield is one of aggression, damage and power.

Yes and no. There's a reason the 2.0 WAR questline emphasizes taming your inner beast for the protection of others instead of lashing out at your enemies or cleaving someone in half while in a berserker rage (the latter is even painted as a very bad thing in the storyline); the abilities themselves reflect that quite well. The HW WAR questline repeatedly hammers on that point, too. In part because the writers help shape the player fantasy and justify why this dude with a huge axe is a tank (an archetype known for dealing less damage than the DPS).

We had people complaining about this during ARR's launch, too. Individuals whose argument was "WAR has a huge axe so why aren't I topping DPS meters?", forgetting the fact they're a tank and why tanks deal less damage than the DPS.

Non-sequitur:

I'm of the opinion WAR in part created the problem because of how Deliverance and its related abilities were designed. The intent is crystal clear: the devs felt that WAR having to drop Defiance and losing their entire resource system while off-tanking was a waste (and I agree with that notion). The main issue is that they made it too easy to switch from Defiance to Deliverance, and in making it too easy allowed it to creep into parts of the gameplay it shouldn't be involved with. That in turn affected the other tanks because one of the three was able to pump out more damage, causing the other two to try to mimic it to keep up. And while one was able to sort of get away with it (DRK), the other could not and has suffered for it (PLD).

Keeping the design's intent in mind, what the devs were most likely expecting is WARs to tank in Defiance and make use of Abandon stacks while off-tanking (via Deliverance) and having damage-oriented abilities in that stance so that the system doesn't go to waste. The way Equilibrium is designed also points to this, since the TP from it is useful while off-tanking (for upkeep, and we know what a big deal this is for off-tanks in general) while the self-heal is useful while main tanking. Chances are they figured the 10-second cooldown was enough to discourage stance swaps, and allowed the 1:1 Wrath-to-Abandon conversion so that WARs don't get screwed over during taunts. They were likely not expecting triple fel cleaves and players ignoring tank-oriented skills.

Going the route of hindsight, the mistake was allowing 1:1 Wrath/Abandon conversions. While I'm not in favor of switches dropping all stacks, reducing stacks by one half rounded down when switching would kill triple Fel Cleaves. Making Infuriate a buff that is lost upon switching (leading to any stacks added by the ability to be lost) would also have helped in keeping things under control. It would also mean that Unchained's purpose is not completely undermined like it currently is.

The problem with that though is that the mentality of Str>All and "tank outside of tank stance" is filtering into levelling players who don't really understand the positives and negatives.

As I've been constantly saying in these discussions, "shit rolls downhill". And I'm glad to see it brought up here.

Does anything even need to be done? The next hard raids wont be coming out until 3.2. All we know is there'll be a bit more physical damage rather than magical so Paladin mitigation wont be quite as far behind Dark Knights as it was on A4S... but this doesnt really say if anything is going to change for the meta.

Changing the damage type is a band-aid on a bullet hole, and has a big chance of placing DRK in the latrine (specially if the next tier favors physical damage). While encounter design would need to change a bit, the issue won't really be fixed unless all three tanks are adjusted as well.

The problem we have currently is the binary notion of tanking. If you change encounter methodology in FFXIV to be more like first three "ways to die" listed above, then you're likely to upset FAR more players than you please. Imagine if every encounter in the next raid requires Warriors to stay in Defiance 100%, only ever using Inner beast as much as possible for mitigation, and to stack vitality due to huge burst damage. No fell cleaves, no strength spec, no interesting stance dancing. I'd wager most Warriors would probably consider rerolling to dragoon or something.

I guess I'll be the one to say it: a person that rolls a tank without understanding why a tank doesn't deal huge e-peen damage rolled a tank for the wrong reasons.

If the current tank meta doesn't change, I feel a lot of disgruntled tanks will quit the role. However, these tanks are very much in the minority, and changing the way things work is likely to drive away the much larger numbers of tanks who enjoy FFXIV tanking purely BECAUSE of the high DPS focus.

Again, don't dismiss those who don't like the meta as a minority.

If this is really about more involved gameplay, then I'll throw out a suggestion I mentioned in both the reddit thread and another thread on these forums: a "hard mode" tank. A tank that is designed to stance dance and do all that comes with it. The catch is that at peak level gameplay it'd be on par with a Grit DRK or Shield Oath PLD. Everyone talks about how fun and "interesting" the gameplay is, so this way they get their wish and those of us who like being a brick wall are not undesired anymore because numbers-wise we're on par with each other.

[Khalithar]

Long time wall style tank here reporting in. The OP's point is spot on, I to made the switch to str accessories because there's no reason not to. You don't need the 19-20k hp for any of the content, it's just overkill, I float around 15-16kish with my str gear and I'm fine as is. I loved being geared up in other mmo's able to shrug off the insane damage done by bosses or pulling three rooms worth of enemies that couldn't even scratch me (once I'd geared up of course). I don't get that in this game, I have to agree that those big royal authority crits feel great but as I focus on maintaining my dps and tanking in sword oath, I feel as though the tanking meta in the game has lost it's way and forgets what it means to be a tank.

But it is difficult to say what can be done. For a start, I'd say make Slaying gear mnk/drg only and Fending gear War/Pld/Drk only then alter the item's budget away from vit to have some str on it so tanks have more hp and still have some of the str they want. Whether you favor the current meta or not, I believe we can all agree that it's wrong for the accessories to be meant for tanks to be considered useless/waste of a drop.

[Kacho_Nacho]

Left side and Right side refer to the slots on your paperdoll character sheet: Left Side is the armor parts - chest, head, belt, gloves, pants and boots. Right side is the five accessories.

As of now, tanks dont get much choice in their Left Side gear - they use the highest item level in each slot they can, as it all contains strength and vitality. When it comes to the Right Side slots though, they have a choice between full Strength with no vitality at all, pure vitality jewels, or some mix and match of both (or melded crafted accessories with a bit of str/vit on each). Basically the right side slots is where you get the chance to tweak how much strength or vitality you're taking into a fight, outside of the 35 stat points.

The i200+ means item level 200 or above (in this case, Esoterics Tome gear or anything from Alexander Savage). Basically the consensus is that if you have item level 200 or greater in all of your left side armor parts, this equates to so much vitality that it's just pointless to have any vitality on the accessories, so tanks will most likely use nearly full Slaying strength accs on the Right side at this gear level, in virtually all encounters ingame.

Thank you for the information, Saphidia!

[Razem5791]

Greetings

I am Razem Shneider from the Marlboro server. I'm a tank and didnt lvl up any DPS class on this character, because tanking is actually what I do best in any MMO I play. Not like I hate DPSing for exemple, but I'm way too clumsy for that. Im an old-timer tank, since I've been doing that for more than 10 years, starting on FF11 as a WAR/NIN, then as a palatank for 10 years in WOW and finally as a gladiator/paladin from when A REALM REBORN has been launched. I agree with Saphiddia on this. It's sure It helps to do good dps as a tank, yes. But it gives much stress to a healer depending of some fights and situations. As Saphiddia said, we have mitigation skills to reduce damage and on cooldowns, we count on our natural defense, giving time for healer to heal others on emergency. I have switched from Paladin lvl 60 to Dark Knight, yet I decided to not lvl up marauder for the DRK since I plan to use my paladin skills with my DRK. I believe to be worth the try and the survival...

[Razem5791]

I forgot to add a point : the aggro. We can change to dps stance (Sword oath, darkside and so on...) Still, with Flash and AOE aggro spell for DRK, We can't do as much damage than a BLM, a NIN or MONK, right. We may add some dps to them but we will clearly loose aggro to them since they will always catch aggro fast on us. And you all know that they wont have as much natural defense than us. Making healer work on the dps and at time heal so much so he gets aggro himself.

[karateorangutang]

OP's analysis is pretty spot on and I agree 100%. I played PLD in XI and generally go for the most support/defense minded tank because that keeping enmity was always more fun to me than just doing a big number. I think that's what has turned me off PLD in HW. It's still viable, but doesn't command the sheer threat that WAR does. For me its not being a wall, but being a threat that makes me enjoy tanking. In this meta though, WAR just feels more like that threatening protector than PLD does. Now that could change in the future and I would gladly change back as I love the sword and shield aesthetic much more.

Also, just to be honest, the thing that really irks me about the whole STR/VIT debate is the survivability aspect of it. I use 3 melded acc and 2 str for my tank. Incoming damage has never, ever, ever been an issue as long I was a reasonable ilvl for the fight. If dps and healers are running into tanks who seem like paper tanks because they are DPS'ing then they are simply doing it wrong. Intelligent and liberal use of cooldowns is what makes that whole mindset possible. If your in DPS stance in a pack of mobs without a cooldown up at all then thats is simply bad tanking. Not popping cooldowns when there are the most mobs up is also a common mistake. The misconception is that defenseive cooldowns aren't important for some reason.

At the end of the day, if your running with a paper tank, watch their buff bar for a bit, if you don't see cooldown's being popped at all, then something needs to be said. I would be willing to bet that in most cases it's simple forgetfulness or lack of understanding. These two things are easily corrected for the betterment of not only the party but the tank themselves.