Is the U-Tribe at the Forgotten Springs an outlier with Nunh Leadership?

[AskaRay]

Hells, to take it to an extreme, we only have concrete information that the Seekers' family trees are patriarchal.
It might be possible that, under the right circumstances, a Seeker tribe's leader could be a woman (definitely not a nunh candidate).

I thought, since it was hinted that nunh's usually aren't leaders, and there are only really a few men in the tribe to begin with, that a woman would be a tribe leader more often then anyway (since there are more of them around).

[Annana]

Well when one of the most imfamour dungeons on the game's history had your name on it...

To be fair, the name of that dungeon pretty much means "Brayflox's Home"

[ExKage]

I thought, since it was hinted that nunh's usually aren't leaders, and there are only really a few men in the tribe to begin with, that a woman would be a tribe leader more often then anyway (since there are more of them around).

To be honest, with the use of explicitly stating that "Unlike the Seekers of the Sun, the Keepers of the Moon is a highly matriarchal society, with family names passed down from the mother, not the father," I felt that the Seekers are probably more likely to be a patriarchal society in their family trees and maybe even leadership with the -tia- as leader while the nunh is well.. the breeding stock.

[Warr_of_Lint]

I also felt that seekers were supposedly patriarch. There are a couple ways I could think of where it would be logical for a non-breeder patriarchal structure: a council of elders past breeding age, or a requirement that the leaders be eunuchs.

The lore on the subject seems somewhat contradictory. On the one hand, the lore says that Nunh does not equate to leadership, but the lore also says that one option to become Nunh is to start a new tribe. Doesn't starting a tribe imply being the leader? Although it would offer another reasons why new tribes fail. Attempting to start a tribe with the intention of being vice president (if even that) seems doomed to fail.

It's a bit of a stretch, but it could just be that the wording is awkward. Maybe what they meant to say was that circle of leadership (or sole leader) is smaller than the pool of Nunhs so, "very few Nunh ever become leaders."

[tjw]

My understanding from the lore page is that a nunh of a tribe is similar to the empress consort of China's Emperors. They are given high status as the breeder of 'the next worthy generation', yet easily displaced when another male appears with a greater breeding material.

However, seeing as the Sunseekers don't seem to be placing much value into say intelligence, wit, compassion or long age, it leaves the more physical attributes as the key 'qualities' to be looking out for. That means aesthetics, and more than likely not, combat ability and strength. That means in a sense, the 'nunh' of a tribe is not necessarily a step below or above the current leader of the tribe, but acting as a partner/vice-leader, similar to say the Empress Dowagers of Ancient China.

And similar to the empress consorts, there will occasionally be the one nunh that is capable of leading and controlling a tribe...

[Anova]

To be honest, with the use of explicitly stating that "Unlike the Seekers of the Sun, the Keepers of the Moon is a highly matriarchal society, with family names passed down from the mother, not the father," I felt that the Seekers are probably more likely to be a patriarchal society in their family trees and maybe even leadership with the -tia- as leader while the nunh is well.. the breeding stock.

It's left intentionally ambiguous. Also, they very explicitly specify patriarchal heritage for Seekers and matriarchal heritage for Keepers. This does not automatically equate to a patriarchal and matriarchal society, so we are free to speculate on what it might be and what is common.

It can't even be said that one causes the other in terms of how we currently understand sociology. Sri-Lanka is an example of a country with matriarchal heritage and a patriarchal society. This is despite the fact that social structure and religion have enforced a very strong patriarchal hierarchy. Birthright and heritage however are still firmly matrilineal. This discrepancy has led to some very urgent Human Rights abuses, but that's a little beyond the scope of the topic.

On the other hand, the Ottoman emperors had a very interesting patriarchal structure. The sultans never married but rather adopted children who they recognized as heirs. He kept a harem and the biological father of those children was usually the sultan's, but heritage of power was decided solely by combat. The acknowledged children would literally kill each other for the throne and the coronation of a new sultan (nunh) was frequently preceded by a parade of weeping women and child-sized coffins. It should be said that the women were very well educated (as a prerequisite to serve the King's harem and become dowager queen) though and the dowager queens actually ruled the country while the sultan managed the army and was usually always in the field of battle (so they rarely practiced or created laws, oversaw government institutions, or attended court).

Another societal division is made for certain ethnic groups in the Balkans, which made it possible for woman to have their heritage forcibly taken. That's why the "Ethnic cleansing" in the Bosnian War was so horrific and spurred discussion of feminist rights. It was literally genocide by rape. Warfare between Seeker tribes would likely involve something like this as a way to eradicate the other side too, unless they have something like the Geneva War Conventions that expressly outlaws this.

It's an interesting topic and some inspiration to talk about if your Miqo'te is not particularly enamored with their tribe and might explain why some Miqo'te choose the adventuring life.

[Velox]

It's left intentionally ambiguous. Also, they very explicitly specify patriarchal heritage for Seekers and matriarchal heritage for Keepers. This does not automatically equate to a patriarchal and matriarchal society, so we are free to speculate on what it might be and what is common.

The moogle mail questline involving the Lihzeh sisters and the Coeurlclaw King does back up SE's claim that Keepers do hold their value in a matriarchal society. The quest (coupled with a few sidequests and FATEs) even goes about explaining why (male Keeper genetics makes them better at being their own man rather than fathers/husbands, and really only stick around for breeding to keep family lines alive before leaving to wander again) and that what the King is doing violates everything Keepers stand for and threatens tribe and inter-tribal stability.

Now it's not a matriarchal society in which women force it though, more of one born out of "understanding" for how males work genetically. Women KNOW males are prone to certain traits and don't blame them for it, but rather, mold life around it to accommodate them in some way. Males get their freedoms while women run the tribes, raise the kids, set the laws, hunt for food, and negotiate trades with other tribes.

That being said, it doesn't explicitly say anything about Seeker tribes, so you may be correct in that aspect. But for now, we have a pretty good foothold on Keeper lore.

[Anova]

The moogle mail questline involving the Lihzeh sisters and the Coeurlclaw King does back up SE's claim that Keepers do hold their value in a matriarchal society.

Hmm, forgot that little side quest, but you're right. I should review the lore cutscenes for that. I'm a little foggy on it.

[ExKage]

It's left intentionally ambiguous. Also, they very explicitly specify patriarchal heritage for Seekers and matriarchal heritage for Keepers. This does not automatically equate to a patriarchal and matriarchal society, so we are free to speculate on what it might be and what is common.

Except, that is the exact quote from the naming conventions. While its support is more about heritage, the exact quote says society.

[Anonymoose]

Except, that is the exact quote from the naming conventions. While its support is more about heritage, the exact quote says society.

To be fair, that's not much of a distinction for the Keepers of the Moon. The vast majority of their "societies" are made up of one to three families.
If a family is matriarchal, that doesn't leave much room for exceptions at the societal level. Not that this clarifies anything about the Seekers, lol.

I wish I had more to contribute, but it seems equally likely to me [A] that patriarchal families might go hand in hand with patriarchal society as far as the information we have goes and [B] that the family trees being based on strength and nunhs leaves plenty of room for leadership to be more nuanced and inclusive.

I can't make much of a guess on whether leadership often defers to Tias or is a mixed bag of Tias, Nunhs, and perhaps even women by tribe, but I can guess that if your daily responsibilities include being studded out to miqo'te by the score, most days you'd struggle to manage the bedroom door, never mind a civil office. ("You might make it to the door, but when you squeeze the handle, you'll pass out." - Lewis Black)