Bard - they broke my job

[RiceisNice]

Like MNK's "Fist of Wind/Earth/Fire" abilities? They are on their own shared cooldown of 3s, so that would be a step in the right direction. Thing is, SE seems dead-set on having parity between BRD and MCH.

It's well within their design to make an oGCD have a cast time. The problem is that because it's currently on the GCD, disabling it is also on the GCD as well (which means you can't acutally "weave" disabling a song) considering the potential uptime and the potential potency of the regens, the cast time for the song itself is fine as it is, just not disabling the song or using it.

Thing is, BRD and MCH are very much alike in a lot of respects. It's just that one job benefits more from double-oGCD weaving due to a certain trait it has, while the other can move more freely due to cast times being designed around the job instead of being slapped on like an afterthought. BRD could use a bit of leniency in that area, but mostly around animation locking and Straighter Shot procs. If any differences could be made, BRD could have higher base damage but focus more on group sustainability while MCH has slightly lower base damage but more emphasis on inflicting debuffs.

Which is part of the problem. We don't want two jobs to play on entirely the same concept, which is almost the case right now. All the two does is keep their debuffs refreshed, keep their own buffs up, be re-active to their procs (which BRD can't do effectively). The only difference I can honestly bring up is the fact that MCH can move better than BRD (which honestly, should not be the only differentiation to the two jobs) and giving straighter shot an increased proc to mirror that would throw it outside the window. They have their own different burst execution, but that only comes up so often in a given fight, that everything else after that have the two executing the same flow of using a filler, watching for procs, using the procs, and using oGCDs when it comes off. There's no management of resources (mana cycling for blm) or limited/building up buffs (like aetherflow or wrath) The ammo system is incredibly straightforward and at best an afterthought since you're encouraged to use quick reload as it comes off cooldown, and ammo itself only has an "additional effect" to two abilities in your entire toolkit, the rest being a flat +20 potency boost. The turret ultimately means very little since it's mostly place and forget, it's not that expansive to how MCH plays as a job compared to BRD (which is different from playing the job effectively).

The main reason why I support allowing abilities like Barrage to have the chances of one-to-all of its hits being able to crit is that it would have the potential to make up for what was a nerf from what the ability originally did. Granted, MCH would also have to be adjusted as an answer to it, but that would require some balancing issues to take into consideration.

This is what I need to address. As of right now, do you need barrage to be buffed to the way it was? Before, it was brought up to make a point that BRDs had actually lost damage going into 3.0 because of both changes to 2.0 traits and new abilities that were questionable (WM). You don't need to change old skills back to the way it was as long as it still balances the effectiveness/performance in the long run (which seems to be the case, more or less assuming that everything else works out)

Totally correct besides the last part, there is an *exception* to EA + Straighter shot, however this is from an unfortunate person who currently sits at around 740-800 skillspeed depending on encounters, for example in A1S my 800 skillspeed set is easily better stats and I don't need TP

The thing is though, if you're "lucky" you'll get an SS proc every time EA comes up. If SS lines up with EA, you're using 130 TP in a single GCD, so while the lack of GCD clipping on EA looks tasty it can burn the hell out of your TP. I tend to avoid doing it too often if I'm getting lucky with SS procs, and I choose to hold EA for my next GCD to both save TP, and "check" for another SS proc since you can do SS -> HS (EA) -> SS if it procs.

It's really just another one of those bard things where it changes depending on the situation, though.

Hitting SS with the proc (but not using the proc) actually delays your oGCD cast, including Empyreal Arrow. Which honestly makes absolutely no sense from a game-design perspective that this is going into bug/glitch territory. Otherwise you're normally supposed to be able to use an oGCD right after the cast finishes.

[Cetonis]

Somewhat stating the obvious, but one way in which they could make BRD more distinct from MCH would be to go in harder on songs - but more specifically, the MP management aspect. Right now the fact that Foe's eats at the same pool as Ballad/Paeon is occasionally meaningful when comparing to MCH, and if Warden's did something more generally useful with a MP drain attached you'd be getting into some interesting MP juggling territory.

And if they went even farther and made Ballad no longer regen your own MP, there'd be a stronger case for the idea Krietor put forth on Frosty's show of severely reducing - or even nixing - the damage penalty on Ballad/Paeon because the MP loss (and cast time) could be a sufficiently significant sacrifice on its own.

[RiceisNice]

...

There's so many ways they could have gone about it with 5 additional abilities, and really MCH as a whole.

-Wanderer's could have been a self-damage buff that drained their TP as it was active. Their next few abilities (cough paeon cough) would act as ways for them to maintain a positive upkeep of TP. They'd become a class that's contingent on managing their TP in the same manner that BLM manages their MP.

-Different attachments for different purposes. Instead of giving carbon copies of quick notch and wide valley, one attachment could've increased TP cost and reduce the damage of weaponskills while giving an AoE effect to it. Gauss Barrel would then be the stationary, single target DPS that adds cast time. Could've gone beyond that and make proc'd cleanshots give a magnetic charge that acted as a pre-requisite for gauss round or ricochet.
--Taking the above, BRD could have remained the mobile ranged class between the two (and ultimately, their tool kit would remain intact with no issues).

Ultimately from what I heard in their presentations, they had scrapped the attachment idea and it just feels like an utter letdown with what we have now, especially in retrospect of what BRD has comparatively.

[aabe]

.

I think you understood my post incorrectly because what I was talking about has nothing to do with SS procs being buggy, however I've been aware of that bug for quite a while. I've actually come to learn to react to the SS proc and just put off reapplying SS for that reason.

Like, for example, in your rotation, this happens:

HS, HS (ss procs), Iron Jaws, Use SS proc, Empyreal arrow just came off CD so use that during the 2.5 GCD of Straighter

I'm pretty sure most people see that happen and say "oh, it's my lucky day EA didn't clip my GCD at all! big deeps!" but it can happen to the point that it melts your TP bar away. I was just sayin it's not something you wanna do every time it occurs.

[RiceisNice]

,,,

Except in that scenario, you'd also want to make sure you want SS active before you reapply iron jaws. I'm talking about a perspective where the proc occurs around the time you need to refresh SS above all else, and the proc just happens to be there and delays your next oGCD.

HS, HS (ss procs), Use SS (proc not used) proc, Iron Jaws, Empyreal arrow

You'd have to clip into your next weaponskill either way by using empyreal arrow first, or delaying your empyreal arrow after SS . And even then, this isn't something that theoretically drains your TP bar *faster* because you aren't using empyreal arrow that much more frequently until you get into the really long fights or have incredibly high SS in your case (Which is not exclusive to empyreal arrow draining your TP, but having high skill speed speed up your GCDs that causes the faster depletion of TP)

[JackFross]

You'd have to clip into your next weaponskill either way by using empyreal arrow first, or delaying your empyreal arrow after SS .

Or you just do

HS > HS (SS procs) > Use SS (proc not used) proc > IJ > SS proc > EA

because the SS proc has a long runoff and will still be up 1 gcd later for you to pop it going into EA; thus 0 gcd clipping. It's a bug in the same way as casting Fire 1 on BLM and then hitting Fire III as a proc hits doesn't proc Firestarter and causes you to hard-cast full MP Fire III. It's not a bug, it's latency in skill activation; there's a delay between proc activation and the buff being on your bar. If you watch that video you linked again, you'll see he starts casting Straight Shot before he even has the Straighter Shot buff on his bar.

Basically, it's time to learn what BLMs learned back in 2.0. Don't do HS (proc!) SS - do HS (proc!) HS SS.

[RiceisNice]

Or you just do

HS > HS (SS procs) > Use SS (proc not used) proc > IJ > SS proc > EA

because the SS proc has a long runoff and will still be up 1 gcd later for you to pop it going into EA; thus 0 gcd clipping. It's a bug in the same way as casting Fire 1 on BLM and then hitting Fire III as a proc hits doesn't proc Firestarter and causes you to hard-cast full MP Fire III.
Basically, it's time to learn what BLMs learned back in 2.0. Don't do HS (proc!) SS - do HS (proc!) HS SS.

But now you're delaying empyreal arrow, which is your strongest oGCD that should be used as it comes up. I say it's a bug because it's not in the same merit as BLM because BRD cast times are 1.5 seconds out of a 2.5 GCD (and so is MCH, where quite frankly they do not have this problem). Realistically, they shouldn't even have a problem with SS because their cast time is shorter than the GCD, but the issue we have here is that you can't even force a refresh by using an oGCD, and for some reason getting your SS in when your previous HS proc'd it would delay your oGCD weaving, which then clips into your next GCD weaponskill

A BLM can force their refresh with an oGCD (which would clip at least a split second into their GCD, since their cast times are either equal or longer than their GCD), but their procs occur faster than BRDs while having less buffer time (their cast time minus their GCD) is what I'm getting at. There's no reason it should be designed like this when MCH can do it just fine.

And lastly, I played BLM, your bolded statement right there, BLMs can't/don't need to do that because their procs appear on both the SCT and the skill bar at the same time. They do not have an instance where the buff shows on their SCT, but gets delayed on their action bars, ever. Infact it's the opposite (the action bar prompt appears before the SCT buff), but the time difference is so minuscule it might as well be at the same time. As a BRD, I can't do what you have laid out there if I have to refresh my SS buff after that HS which caused the proc, espesically if I'm going to refresh my DoTS with the crit buff.

[rappa]

Or you just do

HS > HS (SS procs) > Use SS (proc not used) proc > IJ > SS proc > EA

HS > HS (SS procs) > Use SS (proc not used) proc > IJ > EA > SS proc > bloodletter/oGCD

I think is the best option if this shit happens.

[RiceisNice]

HS > HS (SS procs) > Use SS (proc not used) proc > IJ > EA > SS proc > bloodletter/oGCD

I think is the best option if this shit happens.

As long as you don't need to use an oGCD right after the bolded part, you won't be affected all that well. But still, it's not like you want to delay your oGCDs. The class would still function better as a whole if they fixed up the procs and weaving, and maybe differentiate the two jobs a bit more.

[Janise]

It was really easy in the end. Bard now languishes at 57. I don't play mages because I don t like cast times. I played bard to 52 because it was FUN!! Stopped being fun so stopped playing Bard and started playing NIN. Mudra lag is still better than being a stand alone turret still doing less dps than everyone else. Shame cause bard to 50 was best fun ever.