Is the U-Tribe at the Forgotten Springs an outlier with Nunh Leadership?

[Anonymoose]

I noticed this spreading from Balmung to Tumblr to Twitter, so I pulled my notes just in case it came here next (lol).

Indeed - U'odh is both the nunh of the U and the leader of the U. He explicitly says that his word is law, and the two who seek to unseat him both say they intend to lead. This is about more than the status of breeding males to them, obviously. The U also don't seem to have multiple nunhs at the moment since they keep referring to the nunh, not a nunh. I can't answer whether or not the U are outliers, but based on the "few nunhs ever become leaders" quote in the naming conventions, I'm guessing it's more likely than not. But back to U'odh.

I think this might be about the culture of the Drake tribe in general - the U respect strength above all else. You can see, I'm sure, where this overlaps with the tradition of how one becomes a nunh - defeating their predecessor. And this guy beat Titan.

Who can lead without respect? How do you compete for respect with the nunh when respect is decided by strength?

For the U, this is not so odd, imho.

Imagine a tribe where the highest virtue was intelligence or compassion or experience or age.
The nunh of that tribe would not be as likely to end up leading as he would be with the U, I would think.

[JeniLinsky]

Imagine a tribe where the highest virtue was intelligence or compassion or experience or age.

I'm not sure experience or age is a possible value for determining a Nunh. It seems clear that there's a weakness in the Y chromosome of seekers, which is why ten females are born for every male. The purpose of the entire Nunh / Tia arrangement is to make sure that the best genes possible are passed on. By the time one accumulates a significant amount of experience / age, chromosomal damage has begun to accumulate... the would-be nunh is past the age at which his genetic material is optimal. Yes, it's possible for older males to sire children, but the incidence of birth defects among children with older fathers is higher. If you're looking for the best genetic combinations, you choose young adults for breeding.

[Anonymoose]

I'm not sure experience or age is a possible value for determining a Nunh.

To clarify - in that hypothetical, the values in question were for determining who might be more likely to become the tribe's leader, not its nunh. The naming conventions imply that they are rarely the same person. Specifically in the case of the U, their valued traits and the deciding factors for who is likely to become nunh overlap, and their leader and nunh ended up the same person. Some saw this as a possible contradiction, so to show how this might be normal for the U while still not being necessarily normal across the board for all tribes (as the naming conventions imply), I was giving examples of possible cultural values for a leader whereby they and the deciding factors of a nunh would not overlap. In such a case, the nunh would still be decided by strength and power and skill and all that jazz, but that wouldn't immediately make him leader based on the tribe not valuing those traits as highly as the aforemented hypotheticals.

Hells, to take it to an extreme, we only have concrete information that the Seekers' family trees are patriarchal.
It might be possible that, under the right circumstances, a Seeker tribe's leader could be a woman (definitely not a nunh candidate).

[AskaRay]

Hells, to take it to an extreme, we only have concrete information that the Seekers' family trees are patriarchal.
It might be possible that, under the right circumstances, a Seeker tribe's leader could be a woman (definitely not a nunh candidate).

I thought, since it was hinted that nunh's usually aren't leaders, and there are only really a few men in the tribe to begin with, that a woman would be a tribe leader more often then anyway (since there are more of them around).

[ExKage]

I thought, since it was hinted that nunh's usually aren't leaders, and there are only really a few men in the tribe to begin with, that a woman would be a tribe leader more often then anyway (since there are more of them around).

To be honest, with the use of explicitly stating that "Unlike the Seekers of the Sun, the Keepers of the Moon is a highly matriarchal society, with family names passed down from the mother, not the father," I felt that the Seekers are probably more likely to be a patriarchal society in their family trees and maybe even leadership with the -tia- as leader while the nunh is well.. the breeding stock.

[Warr_of_Lint]

I also felt that seekers were supposedly patriarch. There are a couple ways I could think of where it would be logical for a non-breeder patriarchal structure: a council of elders past breeding age, or a requirement that the leaders be eunuchs.

The lore on the subject seems somewhat contradictory. On the one hand, the lore says that Nunh does not equate to leadership, but the lore also says that one option to become Nunh is to start a new tribe. Doesn't starting a tribe imply being the leader? Although it would offer another reasons why new tribes fail. Attempting to start a tribe with the intention of being vice president (if even that) seems doomed to fail.

It's a bit of a stretch, but it could just be that the wording is awkward. Maybe what they meant to say was that circle of leadership (or sole leader) is smaller than the pool of Nunhs so, "very few Nunh ever become leaders."

[Anova]

To be honest, with the use of explicitly stating that "Unlike the Seekers of the Sun, the Keepers of the Moon is a highly matriarchal society, with family names passed down from the mother, not the father," I felt that the Seekers are probably more likely to be a patriarchal society in their family trees and maybe even leadership with the -tia- as leader while the nunh is well.. the breeding stock.

It's left intentionally ambiguous. Also, they very explicitly specify patriarchal heritage for Seekers and matriarchal heritage for Keepers. This does not automatically equate to a patriarchal and matriarchal society, so we are free to speculate on what it might be and what is common.

It can't even be said that one causes the other in terms of how we currently understand sociology. Sri-Lanka is an example of a country with matriarchal heritage and a patriarchal society. This is despite the fact that social structure and religion have enforced a very strong patriarchal hierarchy. Birthright and heritage however are still firmly matrilineal. This discrepancy has led to some very urgent Human Rights abuses, but that's a little beyond the scope of the topic.

On the other hand, the Ottoman emperors had a very interesting patriarchal structure. The sultans never married but rather adopted children who they recognized as heirs. He kept a harem and the biological father of those children was usually the sultan's, but heritage of power was decided solely by combat. The acknowledged children would literally kill each other for the throne and the coronation of a new sultan (nunh) was frequently preceded by a parade of weeping women and child-sized coffins. It should be said that the women were very well educated (as a prerequisite to serve the King's harem and become dowager queen) though and the dowager queens actually ruled the country while the sultan managed the army and was usually always in the field of battle (so they rarely practiced or created laws, oversaw government institutions, or attended court).

Another societal division is made for certain ethnic groups in the Balkans, which made it possible for woman to have their heritage forcibly taken. That's why the "Ethnic cleansing" in the Bosnian War was so horrific and spurred discussion of feminist rights. It was literally genocide by rape. Warfare between Seeker tribes would likely involve something like this as a way to eradicate the other side too, unless they have something like the Geneva War Conventions that expressly outlaws this.

It's an interesting topic and some inspiration to talk about if your Miqo'te is not particularly enamored with their tribe and might explain why some Miqo'te choose the adventuring life.

[Velox]

It's left intentionally ambiguous. Also, they very explicitly specify patriarchal heritage for Seekers and matriarchal heritage for Keepers. This does not automatically equate to a patriarchal and matriarchal society, so we are free to speculate on what it might be and what is common.

The moogle mail questline involving the Lihzeh sisters and the Coeurlclaw King does back up SE's claim that Keepers do hold their value in a matriarchal society. The quest (coupled with a few sidequests and FATEs) even goes about explaining why (male Keeper genetics makes them better at being their own man rather than fathers/husbands, and really only stick around for breeding to keep family lines alive before leaving to wander again) and that what the King is doing violates everything Keepers stand for and threatens tribe and inter-tribal stability.

Now it's not a matriarchal society in which women force it though, more of one born out of "understanding" for how males work genetically. Women KNOW males are prone to certain traits and don't blame them for it, but rather, mold life around it to accommodate them in some way. Males get their freedoms while women run the tribes, raise the kids, set the laws, hunt for food, and negotiate trades with other tribes.

That being said, it doesn't explicitly say anything about Seeker tribes, so you may be correct in that aspect. But for now, we have a pretty good foothold on Keeper lore.

[ExKage]

It's left intentionally ambiguous. Also, they very explicitly specify patriarchal heritage for Seekers and matriarchal heritage for Keepers. This does not automatically equate to a patriarchal and matriarchal society, so we are free to speculate on what it might be and what is common.

Except, that is the exact quote from the naming conventions. While its support is more about heritage, the exact quote says society.