The issue nobody wants to address

[Whiteroom]

So common that not only have you not experienced it yourself so your evidence isn't even anecdotal, but you're instead relying on third party testimonials?

Whelp I'm convinced.

And its not like hes new either, hes been around since 2011, and still only heard it from a friend, or a friend of a friend. Sounds like a rampant issue to me.

[Atoli]

So common that not only have you not experienced it yourself so your evidence isn't even anecdotal, but you're instead relying on third party testimonials?
Whelp I'm convinced. No offense but if you're trying to provide a point saying how the addition of parsers would breed toxicity, saying the equivalent of "Some guy in my FC said someone in Ex roulette was being mean" isn't going to make your point.

He already said he talked to many people who experienced it. I don't see how "only he himself but no one else" is a better argument than "many people he has talked to".
So yeah, if it makes you happy: I experienced it myself. AND talked to many many people who experienced it, too. More convincing? Probably not, since you don't want to get convinced in the first place.

But since you wanted to hear an anecdotal story, here is one: I was called out on my dmg very rudely after we wiped in a fight in which I got targeted all the time by AoEs. I'm a BLM, meaning movement equals close to no dmg dealt. it was simply bad luck, the AoEs could have targeted someone else, but they didn't. I tried to explain that and got either ignored (we only care about hard facts and the facts say your dmg was the worst out of all the dps!) or told to just ignore the AoEs and get hit, they'd heal it away.
I did what I was told and actively BECAME A WORSE PLAYER by staying in AoEs I could have moved out of but hey, of course my parser numbers skyrocketed :eyesroll:
Only did the healers NOT heal me, so I ended up dying and not dealing any decent dmg anyway.
In other situations in the same group when I wasn't targeted by the AoEs and my dmg was fine just like that, the tank forgot to grab the adds and I got targeted trying to save the healer and died too.
In the end, I was the one getting berated, insulted and kicked, because the parser only showed the numbers - me dealing less dmg than other dps - not that others ignored the fight's mechanics.

[Jynx]

And its not like hes new either.

It just means I have never been personally harassed about my DPS, Tanking, or Healing abillities.

But hey I try to party with friends whenever possible anyways to avoid the duty finder in itself. Doesn't mean I've only heard of it from a "Friend of a friend" I've had many company members experience this and I trust their opinions. A full party parse even in it's best scenario does little if anything to help the hillarious situations you run into in the duty finder.

Beyond even my company I hear of it, I'm a social guy just because you don't think it happens doesn't mean it does.

[Silica-chan]

HIt's a completely unfounded fear.

While I have my problems to believe this just by knowing how people abuse numbers to talk down/flame on others in other games I think this whole discussion will never come to an end if we don't give it a try. Let's say put it into the game for a set time like 3 months or something and see how it turns out and decice afterwards to keep or remove it.

[Whiteroom]

It just means I have never been personally harassed about my DPS, Tanking, or Healing abillities.

But hey I try to party with friends whenever possible anyways to avoid the duty finder in itself. Doesn't mean I've only heard of it from a "Friend of a friend" I've had many company members experience this and I trust their opinions. A full party parse even in it's best scenario does little if anything to help the hillarious situations you run into in the duty finder.

Beyond even my company I hear of it, I'm a social guy just because you don't think it happens doesn't mean it does.

Your ability to put words in mouths here is awesome. Not a single person has denied that there is the odd person who would abuse it. I wonder how many times that has to be repeated, the list of obvious things that need to be repeated is ever growing.

Despite the fact that it's a very common occurance? I've never experienced it myself but I've talked to enough people about how pushy people can get when throwing parse numbers around without even understanding the context of the numbers themselves..

Please re-read your exact words, put in the context of you being around for four years.
Does Very Common fit, in any way, when you put those two pieces of information together?

If it did, you would have run into it many times with even casual use of DF and PF, regardless of if you commonly run with mostly friends.

[Ryel]

He already said he talked to many people who experienced it. I don't see how "only he himself but no one else" is a better argument than "many people I've talked to".
So yeah, if it makes you happy: I experienced it myself. AND talked to many many people who experienced it, too. More convincing? Probably not, since you don't want to get convinced in the first place.

Convince me of what? That the addition of a public parser to FFXIV is suddenly going to raise the levels of player toxicity through the roof and will bring an end to our oh so friendly community? The same community that has no issue harassing and kicking healers and tanks when they don't play up to par but expect playing DPS to avoid accountability?

Why are tanks and healers held accountable for their play but DPS aren't?

41 pages into this thread and not a single person has answered that question, it's been asked by multiple people multiple times but instead the counter argument is always "But... toxicity!!!!"

Offhand i can think of a few MMORPGs on the market that either allow, include, or make use of DPS meters through either in-game features or add on support:

Everquest
World of Warcraft
DC universe Online
Star Wars: The old Republic
Lord of the Rings Online

Many of them have been around far longer and it's already been shown that apathy is the largest response to public parsing, not toxicity. Maleviction posted a video talking about this, i suggest you watch it.

But since you wanted to hear an anecdotal story, here is one: I was called out on my dmg very rudely after we wiped in a fight in which I got targeted all the time by AoEs. I'm a BLM, meaning movement equals close to no dmg dealt. it was simply bad luck, the AoEs could have targeted someone else, but they didn't. I tried to explain that and got either ignored (we only care about hard facts and the facts say your dmg was the worst out of all the dps!) or told to just ignore the AoEs and get hit, they'd heal it away.
I did what I was told and actively BECAME A WORSE PLAYER by staying in AoEs I could have moved out of but hey, of course my parser numbers skyrocketed :eyesroll:
Only did the healers NOT heal me, so I ended up dying and not dealing any decent dmg anyway.
In other situations in the same group when I wasn't targeted by the AoEs and my dmg was fine just like that, the tank forgot to grab the adds and I got targeted trying to save the healer and died too.
In the end, I was the one getting berated, insulted and kicked, because the parser only showed the numbers - me dealing less dmg than other dps - not that others ignored the fight's mechanics.

That's unfortunate, did you report them?

I'm sure others can come in and give anecdotal stories about how they were harassed or kicked or treated rudely for any number of reasons. I remember out of the two times i was kicked from a dungeon one was because i didn't do a full pull and clear of the first room in Aurum Vale as PLD back when i was farming relic weapon drops, not only was i not even asked to pull the rest of the mobs but i was cursed out, called names and kicked.

It happens.

Players will harass and berate each other for any number of reasons, simply because they can. When they do however feel free to report them to GM's as that's what they're there for.

Nobody is denying that it will happen on occasion, they are however saying it has been proven to not be as common as many would have you believe, which is what my reply to the earlier comment was making light of.

EDIT: For the sake of full disclosure the other time i was kicked from a dungeon was in Copperbell (Hard) as PLD (also for relic drops) when the healer decided i wasn't pulling as fast as they wanted and grabbed the entirety of the next room while i was fighting something else. I sat there and watched him die, it was hilarious and worth the kick.

[Elazu]

I wonder what would happen if the entire playerbase started putting in as much effort as the average df person and nothing would ever be cleared again.

[Archaell]

I wonder what would happen if the entire playerbase started putting in as much effort as the average df person and nothing would ever be cleared again.

Things would get nerfed. But this would be another interesting social experiment - instances would still get cleared, but they would require many, many wipes till the stars align. People play to have fun, could fun survive all the wipes? I wonder how the toxicity would change after that.

[Urthdigger]

You may think that some people are just poor uninfomred souls but I guarnatee you a good majority of them are just facerolling because they know you are never going to see them again in content. The best enforcement of people needing to actually know there job and play the game is responsibillity the duty finder works against this. Being known as the guy who just wont listen to advice on how to be a better player is worse than having your numbers shown for strangers to look at for 10-15 minutes until they never see you again.

The whole reason for adding a parser is to make it easier to see when a player isn't up to snuff. At the moment, those players can hide behind the other DPS. If a DPS check isn't being met, I don't really have an easy way to see whether it was the MNK, DRG, or both that was half-assing it. If I can see a player is causing problems (Note, CAUSING PROBLEMS, not if they're just a little bit behind), then I can attempt to coach the player and, should that fail, kick and replace them just before the final boss so they spend all that time and don't even get most of the tomestones or roulette bonus. And if people do that enough times, they do get a reputation.

[Noxifer]

No, and this is the misunderstanding that you and many other posters keep having.

Well, my reply basically centred around "if you have a damage dealer of the same level as the tank example you gave, you REALLY don't need a parser to notice said damage dealer" -- which is not really a misunderstanding. Would a parser help said damage dealer (or tank)? Maybe, maybe not. Will shouting abuse at them help? I'm pretty sure it wouldn't.

I'm not saying it's fine to go into DF with a level 15 weapon and caster gear on a DoW in Brayflox, or resort to auto-attacks while watching netflix. Just the same as I don't approve of afk-scholars just putting /follow on one of the party members and letting their fairy deal with everything -- the only times I'm okay with that is if the scholar has a "shit brb" moment and uses that (in early dungeons, of course) to avoid holding the entire party up while they deal with whatever RL problem that cropped up. And yes, that assumes it IS just a 'brb' and not 'afk for the rest of the dungeon'. But in my experience, when it comes to cases like that, the damage dealer is more likely to get kicked, because "we'll get a new one in ten seconds", whereas a poorly performing tank or healer has more leeway because it'd take longer to replace them.

Stop with these analogies, please. When you queue up for something in this game, you're making a choice. No one is forcing you to participate like a required P.E class in school

Which I did comment on later on in that segment, how you're required to participate and can't opt out, the same way people can opt out from DF -- or leave a duty once you're inside if you don't like the party members you've been thrown together with. And I didn't intend for the different 'skill levels' in said sport to be the exact same in FFXIV, I merely wanted to point out that there are different levels of skill, from excellent to poor.

You've been playing this game for many hours to get to level 60, so it can't possibly be too much for me to hope that you're able to carry your own weight and have some understanding of how your skills work whenever you decide to participate in a dungeon.

But someone still levelling their first class and doing, say, Toto-rak, hasn't been playing for that many hours, yet some people in DF seem to hold them to the same standard as a level 50+ player. Someone might have a level 50 healer, but are picking up their first tank or dps class -- or vice versa. People might have taken a long hiatus from the game and are just returning and still rusty. The point of my analogy (and pretty much the entire post I made) was basically, "People have different skill levels, and trying to force them all to operate at the same level is impossible, and heaping abuse on those who can't is pointless -- and likely to get you in trouble if it gets reported."

...you say "Umm, hey, we are supposed to take the ball to that net down there and score."...

...to which one of the other players yells "Hey! don't pick on him! He can play how he wants! Elitest scum!"...

...and the person kicking the ball responds "Yeah, I'm the one carrying you anyway!"...

That is what the thread is actually about.

And in those cases, the fault lies with the person ignoring the advice. I'm certainly not arguing that. But more often than not (in my experience), it's the 'advice-giver' who starts out rudely.
There's a huge difference between, "Umm, hey, we are supposed to take the ball to that net down there and score," and "Hey, idiot, get the ****ing ball to the goal already, L2P noob!"
In the first case, a parser might help in a few cases, while in other cases the person would just continue to ignore advice given until they were kicked from the team/party. In the second case, a parser wouldn't help once the argument is already started.