The Warrior of Light: Plot Device, Mary Sue or A legitamate charatcer

[Februs]

I also would not get your hopes up about the Warrior of Darkness being different because I have a gut feeling that he will just be the attack dog for the Ascians instead of having his own will. He seems to be nothing more than a counterpart to the Warrior of Light simply to stop them.

Oh, trust me. I don't hold my breath over this particular area of the story of this game.

The lore is fascinating, and the plot events (as well as the voice acting/delivery) of the expansion were greatly improved over the 2.0 content, in my opinion, but when it comes to our character, I have no faith in SE's ability to make anything compelling. It's partly because of the nature of MMO's. The fact that we customize (and re-customize) our own characters makes it pretty difficult to write anything compelling about them. By default, SE would be cut out of certain details that they would normally use as plot points (Ie: Our species and genders are widely different, so they could not fall back on any specific character foils that would be tied to either. Or, for example, they cannot possibly know each of our own individual sexual or romantic persuasions, so writing in a romantic interest for the WoL would be impossible... etc.)

It would be nice to see them write scenes involving the WoL that make him seem like more of a character rather than simply our window into the world of FFXIV, and there were a few occasions in the expansion which actually made efforts to "include" us in the plot a little more (I seem to recall a couple parts where we were asked to make a choice or express our opinion. It changed nothing, but it was a nice touch). However, I don't expect them to be able to write anything truly compelling that would make it seem like the story is "our" story. It's not, really. We're just a part of it. Seeing as how the WoD is our opposite, I imagine it will be largely the same thing. It would be nice for him to be a rival, or have ideas and an agenda of his own, but I find it unlikely that he'll be any different than our reflection in a mirror.

[Belhi]

What I'm referring to as ridiculous (besides the entire notion that someone wants to frame the guy who has been protecting their entire way of life almost every day of the week and twice on sundays) is the fact that during the whole affair, we don't move, protest, say a word, or even gesture in any meaningful way. We get slapped in irons and pouted on the floor while everyone else goes on and on about whatever. We do not behave like a "character" of any type in that instance. The way we acted, or rather didn't act, made us seem like a neglected weapon. It was like, "oh, jeez. Someone left this gun unattended and now the Sultana is dead.... Welp, nothing for it. Better make sure the safety is on and store it properly in the gun rack."

It's not so much that I expect the WoL to go on a rampage or something, and I know it wouldn't have really "fit" with our character to kill Lolorito (though the simplest solutions are often the best ones. Really, the bigger problem is one of witnesses...). It's that we literally did nothing. Our presence in that scene was about as relevant as the cup that the Sultana drank out of, and it makes the WoL seem much more like plot device than a character. They made up for it, a little, with the sacrifice of all the Scions, but, again, it hardly made us seem like a person so much as a treasured item that they couldn't bare to see taken away from them.

In this situation the WoL was totally cornered. There was little he or she could do. Teleji had cornered them in such a fashion that anything they did would only make them look even more like the bad guy. As for the sacrifice, its because the WoL is unique. Not only because of his/her abilities to influence and make changes and inspire people, but because they could do things that no one, even the other scions could do. Like fight Primals.

It would be nice to see them write scenes involving the WoL that make him seem like more of a character rather than simply our window into the world of FFXIV, and there were a few occasions in the expansion which actually made efforts to "include" us in the plot a little more (I seem to recall a couple parts where we were asked to make a choice or express our opinion. It changed nothing, but it was a nice touch). However, I don't expect them to be able to write anything truly compelling that would make it seem like the story is "our" story. It's not, really. We're just a part of it. Seeing as how the WoD is our opposite, I imagine it will be largely the same thing. It would be nice for him to be a rival, or have ideas and an agenda of his own, but I find it unlikely that he'll be any different than our reflection in a mirror.

Im not sure. I don't think he will simply be a villain. One thing that comes up quite a bit in several of the Job questlines is the balance between light and shadow. I think we will have clashes with him and he probably wont simply be on our team but I think he won't outright be our enemy and quite possibly will fight along side us occasionally.

[Fenral]

I disagree that there is a much needed genre shift to "deconstruction". There are plenty of works out there deconstructing classic fantasy, I am enjoying the old school approach of classic old style fantasy. ( can't quote cause on iPad)

I'm... not? At least, not anymore, but only because there are so many better, more focused works out there for that, and lately it's felt like the storytelling is actually chafing against the restrictions imposed by the format. That's not a good thing.

Besides, we already have Eldibus scrambling around trying to do damage control, and I'd really like him to be right about something. The possible alternatives are... unfortunate.

[Ayuhra]

Oh, trust me. I don't hold my breath over this particular area of the story of this game.

The lore is fascinating, and the plot events (as well as the voice acting/delivery) of the expansion were greatly improved over the 2.0 content, in my opinion, but when it comes to our character, I have no faith in SE's ability to make anything compelling. It's partly because of the nature of MMO's. The fact that we customize (and re-customize) our own characters makes it pretty difficult to write anything compelling about them. By default, SE would be cut out of certain details that they would normally use as plot points (Ie: Our species and genders are widely different, so they could not fall back on any specific character foils that would be tied to either. Or, for example, they cannot possibly know each of our own individual sexual or romantic persuasions, so writing in a romantic interest for the WoL would be impossible... etc.)

To be fair in clients other than English (German especially) Lord Haurchefant is a romantic interest. I wish they had kept that in English because it IS a detail that makes the WoL feel more anchored in the world. The way he was written in German and the way NPCs refer to him makes it possible for the player to decide whether it was unrequited love or not. Meaning he loves the WoL but the WoL could be oblivious if that's how the player chooses to read it. More interactions like that would be welcome.

I am noticing in Heavensward that the WoL seems to be becoming more of a character in very subtle ways. I noticed more emoting in cutscenes this time around and you have actual traveling companions in Ysayle and Estinien who interact with you. The WoL feels slightly less like a weapon the Scions are pointing at people and more like a person caught up in a ridiculous war. I'm not saying the WoL is a WELL ROUNDED character but steps are being made.

What I'd love to see, but I know I wont, is the quests playing out differently and the world responding differently depending on player choice. Elder Scrolls Online does this which is why it has my favorite quest system of any MMO (oh it is a flawed game but it has its shining moments). The story and world of FFXIV is deep enough that a branching system like that would add a lovely touch even if it only caused small details to vary per person.

[Februs]

To be fair in clients other than English (German especially) Lord Haurchefant is a romantic interest.

Good catch. It's the same in the English version. The dialogue and some of the more lingering glances heavily imply that Haurchefant is in love (at least to some degree) with the WoL. They played it really subtle and left it open to interpretation. In some cases, it only seemed like he was purely awestruck and deeply caring (similar to the way one might have a friend they care so much about that they are treated like treasured family), but in others it seemed clear that he was blatantly smitten with us (which in my case, implied that Haurchefant was homosexual). However the WoL seems to take no notice, regardless of the situation.

They did the same thing before 3.0 with Tataru. During her brief side quests where she is trying to "find herself" and become even remotely useful to the group, there are a couple instances where she confides in the WoL and, after we leave, looks after us longingly. Again, it's very subtle (as it kind of has to be) and is open to interpretation, but it's there.

It's scenes like these, as well as the ones in HW that you pointed out between Ysayle, Estinien, and Alphinaud, that actually make us feel like a character, and I wish there were more instances of them. I also wish that they were presented in a stronger fashion. Having us interact with the characters more, offer our opinions, be involved in dialogue instead of just silently standing off to the side, have some degree of choices (even if they are a facade and don't impact the plot at all) would do wonders for making us feel like we're actually involved with what's going on instead of simply playing the witness. The only characters that seem to consistently treat us as "people" are the job quest related ones... and, I'm not gonna lie, sometimes I go back to chat with them just to be reminded that my character is a person in the world and not just some phantom.

[Februs]

Im not sure. I don't think he will simply be a villain. One thing that comes up quite a bit in several of the Job questlines is the balance between light and shadow. I think we will have clashes with him and he probably wont simply be on our team but I think he won't outright be our enemy and quite possibly will fight along side us occasionally.

The WoD's role is something I'm the most interested in for future content.The fact that he's standing with an Ascian kind of implies he's just going to be a gun they can point our way when they need to "balance" things out, and the lore seems to indicate that he'll be similar to us in every way except that he's our opposite. The contrast between light and shadow, Hydaelyn and Zodiark, implies that he'll be us, basically, just our mirror reflection, but I wonder how he'll be implemented.

I also can't help but wonder if the implementation of the WoD wasn't in some way influenced by us, the players. I recall a Fan convention... or something, back when they first were introducing HW, and they were talking about how the Dark Knight job does not mean that the Dark Knights were evil, so we didn't have to worry. The audience was disappointed though, and all went "Aww...." Then the administrators were shocked and asked the crowd if we wanted to play as the "bad guy." Most of the crowd said yes, and Yoshi P said: "... we'll think about it."

I highly doubt that the WoD's creation was influenced by the event, since HW was already nearing completion at the time, but it does make me wonder if they take these sort of things into account as they move forward.

[Ayuhra]

Haurchefant's fondness for the WoL does come across as deep friendship or subtle love in English but it is far from subtle in other languages. In Japanese he has lines like "Oh, I was waiting for you, [NAME]! I had heard you would be attending this meeting, so I impatiently waited for your arrival! Your body is beautiful as always… splendid! It has been a long time since you last visited Coerthas — do you find it cold? It is warmer in my private chambers, so if you’d like…" He flat out propositions you like this. More than once. In German his attraction is portrayed as tragic unrequited (or at least unconsummated) love.

In German, he dies in your arms lamenting that you are finally touching him but he can't feel you. His last words are him calling you his hero.

I actually wish they had kept the romantic tones in English. I feel like we missed out on part of Haurchefant's character and some of our own WoL's as well. Knowing they lost someone who might have been a lover characterizes them a bit further when they are later seen accepting the shield, visiting the monument and crying bloody vengeance ("Life for Death! I will have Ser Zephirin's heart for what he did to Haurchefant!")

Hopefully in the future they will be less shy in the English client about having characters see the WoL as...well...a person.

[Fenral]

A certain character in the Japanese version was framed as being your perky, overeager-but-underconfident younger-brother-type character, and that, combined with the number of direct interactions (and background banter) he had with the WoL, resulted in him being fairly well-received by Japanese players. Naturally, he was changed in the English to being enigmatic, with largely inscrutable motivations, and, in that last scene, became kind of an arrogant jerk for reasons that were largely removed from his English-language characterization, leading to a not insignificant amount of hate that is pretty specific to the English-language playerbase. (The Japanese version is closer to "Yeah! I can do this thing! It'll be so cool!" with the response coming across as "Yeah, but so can we! See you again soon!")

I think it boils down to what the Localization leads for each language think works best for their understanding of the target audience. The problem with having the game client in multiple languages, though, is that there ends up being a lot more transparency than there was in, say, Final Fantasy XII, when Alexander O. Smith rewrote Balthier's character pretty much from scratch, turning him from a hothead punk into the "leading man" we all know and love.

[CyrilLucifer]

I always felt like some of the heroines in XI had some pretty blatant romantic undertones with your character as well. When you start getting into "you've influenced my life and been there for me whenever I'm in need...I'm not sure what I'm going to do without you" type statements in every other cutscene it's hard to interpret it as anything but interest. One of them even blatantly says "As soon as I saw you, I knew I had to have you" in Wings of the Goddess, regarding, well, certain spoilery things that I think Februs would enjoy.

I think it being a MMO and the WoL being a non-character aren't really excuses to not have deep, possibly intimate relationships with NPCs. As mentioned above, HW does seem to have done a bit better job with it.

That being said...

I'll take Elidibus.

[_Pigzig]

I think it's an excuse for why our character is so talented. It's actually an explanation to avoid him/her feeling like a sue.
He's not some random prodify, he's somehow been gifted, that's why he's good.
Rather than just being really really strong and better than everyone for no reason.