Raider to Non-Raider: an exhibition on thoughts and misconceptions

[RiceisNice]

I agree with you in some parts... A3S is a really big change in the difficulty, but T5,T8 and T9 were the Difficulty jumps from the Coil of bahamut ,even with a Ilv 130 gear I saw tons of times, ppl making mistakes on them... It took me 1 month with ilv 110 to clear T9 with 10% eccho... I think the problem is the eccho... you know that on 3.1 onward they will put a 10%,20% eccho on your head and It will be easier... but if you take it off... its hell with the ilv gearI remember on T10 we need Adlo+ SS to keep the boss target alive during that rush, with 3 ppl soaking dmg... (I agree with you in the rest of your comment ^^ )
Maybe since so many ppl cleared FCOIL with eecho that DEVs thought we were match to all the Floors from alexander but they see now that they exagerated on the difficulty... It's just like Five night at freedy's 4, on the previous games people realized all the tricks in a single month and then the creator believing it will still happen, he created something so hard to descover that no one created the right theory about it in two months and now he is releasing an update to help ppl find the right story about it

The thing is, Savage is meant to be hard (or at the very least, nerfing the hard content so it becomes more acessible, rather than nerfing mid core to be more accessible is counter-intutive, especially when a normal mode already exists), I don't think they'll introduce echo (or even mechanical nerfs) like they did to SCoB, because there was no alternative for people who don't or couldn't do statics. Which goes back to my previous point, the problem may very well be that normal is too easy compared to savage being too hard (both leading to the same result, the middleground have no content).

Speaking from another perspective, would you rather middle-ground content eventually get nerfed (via echo and overgearring) to allow it to be cleared with DF, or have the hardest content be eventually nerfed to become more accessible to middle ground when we already have a normal/DF mode available from the start? To me, the latter sounds a bit more reasonable, as it's content/story that becomes more acessible overtime as it gets older, while the latter only really offers challenge and higher ilvl (both of which gets rendered moot if you make the fight easier anyway)

And I also think you're trying to justify the changes from a developmental standpoint, as a player. The fact is, the "why and how" of how the fights are designed doesn't really matter to the players, its what they are given that matters at the end of the day. The developers could take a look back on their thought process (or lack of in some cases) to see where they have gone wrong that had led to them bleeding subs or the player base collapsing.

[Fynlar]

Can you explain how it is possible to disagree with the absolutely objective, self-evident notion that "not all raiders are of the same skill level, and in fact rather than a homogeneous blob of mindless, identical robots, they're a demographic of people with diverse levels of commitment to the game, as well as skill?". Please, seriously, explain to me how you disagree with that, give a reasonable argument as to why, in fact, anybody who has ever set foot in any of this game's progression 8man raids in this game is, in fact, an identical clone of each other, and all, universally, without any dissent, demanded that raids be made harder, only to get mad when they actually were. Painting with broad strokes probably makes you feel clever but in reality it, well, makes you look like you're way out of your field here.

Because ultimately, when you cut out all the bloat, all that's really left there is a whine about how we got a hard raid after people clamored for a hard raid in 3.0.

[Alahra]

The argument "its to hard for me", I don't remember someone of them said this.

I don't think anyone would come right out and say it like that for one, but considering that the difficulty of Savage has been a concern not just among midcore players, but those at the cutting edge of progression like Elysium, I'd wager that some folks have elected not to do Savage because the difficulty is too high for it to be fun. I wouldn't say necessarily that I'm *incapable* of doing Savage, but given the level of play necessary to complete AS3/4, I have no desire to partake in it, as pushing myself to that level of play is not fun for me.

Because ultimately, when you cut out all the bloat, all that's really left there is a whine about how we got a hard raid after people clamored for a hard raid in 3.0.

People did, but are you 100% certain that it's the *same* people that wanted a hard raid that are now complaining? I know myself and others felt that FCOB was great and got the difficulty just right. While I'm all for other players having harder content, I would have much rather it came in addition to, rather than at the expense of content at FCOB's rough difficulty level.

The thing is, Savage is meant to be hard (or at the very least, nerfing the hard content so it becomes more acessible, rather than nerfing mid core to be more accessible is counter-intutive, especially when a normal mode already exists), I don't think they'll introduce echo (or even mechanical nerfs) like they did to SCoB, because there was no alternative for people who don't or couldn't do statics.

I'm relatively sure they'll still add Echo to Alex Savage, as they'll still most likely move it to DF in 3.2 to allow room for the new Savage raid to be on the dedicated raid server. Echo and mechanical nerfs are all but required for content like AS3 or AS4 to function at some level in DF content. I'm personally hopeful they don't overnerf things (as they did with SCOB), though. BCOB and FCOB had very little in the way of mechanics changes, which I think is a better way to preserve the content after it's no longer current.

[NFaelivrin]

Because ultimately, when you cut out all the bloat, all that's really left there is a whine about how we got a hard raid after people clamored for a hard raid in 3.0.

"When you cut out all the bloat" is an interesting euphemism for "when you absolutely remove all details from this situation and skew it towards my uninformed opinion, based entirely on a couple of posts I might have or not seen in these forums". At least it saves you some words, even if it makes you look even more lost than you already looked. Can you show me some evidence of this clamoring for a hard raid? I don't mean "1 or 2 OF posts", I mean something that empirically demonstrates that "WE WANT HARDER RAID" was an universally held opinion among raiders, this also means you have to make sure not to include the weird people who wanted coil to be harder without even clearing T2. Oh wait, I don't think you can actually provide this evidence, because, you see friend, it does not exist. Haha, how weird is that, it's almost as if people who beat some bosses in this game are actually diverse and not some kind of diabolical conspiracy who meet up in their secret base to plan out how to ruin the rest of the game for casuals while rubbing their hands and twirling their mustaches and patting each other in the back about their satanic, unholy parse numbers. Now go bother somebody else with your childish oversimplifications.

[zosia]

Because ultimately, when you cut out all the bloat, all that's really left there is a whine about how we got a hard raid after people clamored for a hard raid in 3.0.

Fallacy of the single cause
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallac...e_single_cause

Can you explain how it is possible to disagree with the absolutely objective, self-evident notion that "not all raiders are of the same skill level, and in fact rather than a homogeneous blob of mindless, identical robots, they're a demographic of people with diverse levels of commitment to the game, as well as skill?". Please, seriously, explain to me how you disagree with that, give a reasonable argument as to why, in fact, anybody who has ever set foot in any of this game's progression 8man raids in this game is, in fact, an identical clone of each other, and all, universally, without any dissent, demanded that raids be made harder, only to get mad when they actually were. Painting with broad strokes probably makes you feel clever but in reality it, well, makes you look like you're way out of your field here.

It's not worth the time to reply to a person who reduces this entire problem to a single issue of "people can't make up their minds and whine about it." Fynlar never address the points or provides feedback here. The only substance his posts carry is the fact that there was a small minority asking for harder raids in ARR. The concept that MANY players really enjoyed ARR raiding eludes him.

People did, but are you 100% certain that it's the *same* people that wanted a hard raid that are now complaining? I know myself and others felt that FCOB was great and got the difficulty just right. While I'm all for other players having harder content, I would have much rather it came in addition to, rather than at the expense of content at FCOB's rough difficulty level.

Well said!

[Fynlar]

"When you cut out all the bloat" is an interesting euphemism for "when you absolutely remove all details from this situation and skew it towards my uninformed opinion, based entirely on a couple of posts I might have or not seen in these forums". At least it saves you some words, even if it makes you look even more lost than you already looked. Can you show me some evidence of this clamoring for a hard raid? I don't mean "1 or 2 OF posts", I mean something that empirically demonstrates that "WE WANT HARDER RAID" was an universally held opinion among raiders, this also means you have to make sure not to include the weird people who wanted coil to be harder without even clearing T2. Oh wait, I don't think you can actually provide this evidence, because, you see friend, it does not exist. Haha, how weird is that, it's almost as if people who beat some bosses in this game are actually diverse and not some kind of diabolical conspiracy who meet up in their secret base to plan out how to ruin the rest of the game for casuals while rubbing their hands and twirling their mustaches and patting each other in the back about their satanic, unholy parse numbers. Now go bother somebody else with your childish oversimplifications.

I've seen loads of testimonials talking about how FCoB was not hard enough (and compared to SCoB now after having gotten to do them both at level 60, I can see their point) and how there was a lot of hope for Alex Savage posing a challenge.

I'm not going to dig the ones on the forum up for you because that's going farther back than I care to search. Whether or not you choose to believe that this evidence existed isn't going to affect me one way or the other.

[Alahra]

I've seen loads of testimonials talking about how FCoB was not hard enough (and compared to SCoB now after having gotten to do them both at level 60,

Would you care to share them with the rest of us? While I don't doubt some folks wanted a harder challenge (probably those who really enjoyed SCOB Savage), all we're getting is hearsay at this point.

And even if some of *those* players wanted a harder raid, it doesn't mean the rest of us did.

[FeliAiko]

From the top tier players who cleared and have it on farm, to those currently progressing, to those who decided it wasn't worth it and left... all have expressed the same sentiment (to some degree) that the fights in Savage are too hard, and/or otherwise badly designed. Are people really going to act as if the growing wave of criticism isn't an issue here, and persist with the claims that Savage is "fine", that it's "working as intended"?

It's one thing trying to keep players occupied for as long as possible, I get that. Doesn't mean that the methods SE used for this raid tier wasn't a poor one.

[zosia]

I've seen loads of testimonials talking about how FCoB was not hard enough (and compared to SCoB now after having gotten to do them both at level 60, I can see their point) and how there was a lot of hope for Alex Savage posing a challenge.
I'm not going to dig the ones on the forum up for you because that's going farther back than I care to search. Whether or not you choose to believe that this evidence existed isn't going to affect me one way or the other.

Regardless if there was people providing feedback that they wanted harder raids, there is no guarantee that the same people who complained back then are the same people who complained now. How do you not understand that?

I mean, I appreciate the thread bumps, but if it's no different to you why even bother replying to this thread?

If this is all whining rabble, why even bother if all of this is no different to you? The main thing people want changed is savage, so that will have no impact on you. The only purpose you have served in this thread was to be divisive, that's really it. You don't even want to back your claims with evidence. Your investment in this thread has only served to show you in a less than favorable light, why are you even here at this point?

[Fynlar]

Regardless if there was people providing feedback that they wanted harder raids, there is no guarantee that the same people who complained back then are the same people who complained now. How do you not understand that?

I mean, I appreciate the thread bumps, but if it's no different to you why even bother replying to this thread?

If this is all whining rabble, why even bother if all of this is no different to you? The main thing people want changed is savage, so that will have no impact on you. The only purpose you have served in this thread was to be divisive, that's really it. You don't even want to back your claims with evidence. Your investment in this thread has only served to show you in a less than favorable light, why are you even here at this point?

Because I'm amused by the fact that no matter what SE does, people will complain.

Also amused at the fact that people asked for a harder raid and are now crying that they got it. Basically, just a whole lot of amusement.

*leans back and sips imaginary tea*