Raider to Non-Raider: an exhibition on thoughts and misconceptions

[Silica-chan]

I was referring to the NM / Savage split. In my opinion, they don't need NM. Just a single difficulty was perfectly fine. If casuals can't experience the content, then too bad. They also won't be experiencing a lot of the other content this game has to offer. Should we change all that stuff, too?

What kind of comparison is that supposed to be? There is a difference in just fate/levequest farming and beating an 8 man endgame raid just saying.

Also NM / Savage split is fine. Why would it be a good to seal away a side story behind some hard end raid that only like 10-15% of the comunity will ever see? Not really worth the effort in creating it in the first place but thats just me.

[Fynlar]

"OMG SE give us some actual difficult endgame content in Heavensward plz"
SE: "Here you go"
"OMG SE this is too hard, all our statics are breaking WTF"

It's just yet another case of MMO players not knowing what they want. Not the first time it's happened and obviously won't be the last.

[Brian_]

What kind of comparison is that supposed to be? There is a difference in just fate/levequest farming and beating an 8 man endgame raid just saying.

Also NM / Savage split is fine. Why would it be a good to seal away a side story behind some hard end raid that only like 10-15% of the comunity will ever see? Not really worth the effort in creating it in the first place but thats just me.

The comparison is if they wanted to experience Coil, they could. They just didn't want to put in the time or effort. So, it's no different from not wanting to dump hours upon hours to level every class to 60 to experience their individual stories. In fact, I enjoyed certain class quests just as much as I enjoyed Coil's story.

Nothing is particularly difficult about raiding. It's all about investing time to learn your job and the fight.

The NM / Savage split is obviously not fine. Evidence? The massive drop off in raiders. If the incentives were fair, the drop off would not be this bad. In reality, it's the same fights with harder mechanics, no new story, and recolored gear. Hardly worth the hours needed to progress through it for anyone but the most hardcore. It's not a coincidence that tons of midcore groups have died.

That 10-15% of your community is also composed of some of your most devoted fans and players. These are the same players that stream your game, produce content based on your game, and are likely to be active in various communities surrounding your game. Is that not reason enough to create some content for them? It's not like they're ignoring the production of casual content.

[Reih]

And this, folks, is a prime example of the misconceptions that are mentioned in the thread title. Thank you for the demonstration.

There are raiders in this game. There are assholes in this game. Not all assholes are raiders, and not all raiders are assholes.

It's not a misconception. It's called social perception. Unless the server I am in is way messed up this is an ugly truth you have to face with. I do understand that not all is black or white but when you hit this topic every single day with the same type of reactions from different people you have a pattern. And if you see this pattern repeating itself over and over... well you get the idea.

The tools I mention do exist and are used for this kind of behavior I mentioned before by the same group you denominate raiders. So, my question is: are you really a raider?

[Renault]

It's not a misconception. It's called social perception. Unless the server I am in is way messed up this is an ugly truth you have to face with. I do understand that not all is black or white but when you hit this topic every single day with the same type of reactions from different people you have a pattern. And if you see this pattern repeating itself over and over... well you get the idea.

The tools I mention do exist and are used for this kind of behavior I mentioned before by the same group you denominate raiders. So, my question is: are you really a raider?

I think his response was because your post had NOTHING to do with the topic at hand. This is not a thread about parsers.

[Reih]

I think his response was because your post had NOTHING to do with the topic at hand. This is not a thread about parsers.

My Response is not about parsers at all, but how tools (which are not just parsers... can we skip to 2015 where people actually have more than that?) are used by the so called raiders to discriminate other people and then ask for empathy when there's non to show.

[Welsper59]

"OMG SE give us some actual difficult endgame content in Heavensward plz"
SE: "Here you go"
"OMG SE this is too hard, all our statics are breaking WTF"

It's just yet another case of MMO players not knowing what they want. Not the first time it's happened and obviously won't be the last.

Seriously. The OP makes valid points about the state of things, but this is honestly what happens when players have some relevant degree of influence towards the devs. As always, history repeats itself. Even in the case of WoW, the same thing happened. Until the end of WotLK, the devs rarely listened to the extremities with players when it came to combat difficulty. All they did was listen to positive feedback and worked with what players were doing to have fun, mechanics wise, at the time during TBC (which was the beginning of no CC parties with the emergence of AoE tanking thanks to Paladin tanks). Players complained about it being too easy for a long time... Bliz delivers difficulty in Cata instances when it launched, people start complaining it's too hard.

[Renault]

My Response is not about parsers at all, but how tools (which are not just parsers... can we skip to 2015 where people actually have more than that?) are used by the so called raiders to discriminate other people and then ask for empathy when there's non to show.

Sorry, but I just really don't see that in this game. Also, you're still in the wrong thread if that's what you're here to talk about.

[Reih]

The fact that a third of the main post handles between raiders and non-raiders is part of this topic. Asking for empathy when wrapping things up is asking something from non-raiders towards raiders. Something is beign asked without really treating the problem... so unless there's a common ground for non-raiders and raiders alike, there's no way you can ask non-raiders to provide information on this topic.

Here's a shocker for you! This kind of tools affect game design in general. Specially for raiders. This does generate a gap between raiders and non-raiders. It even causes problems between raiders themselves as to who gets to stay or leave a static or even a FC. What's worse, the issues that want to be addressed in this post over end game raiding is flawed because Developers and Raiders get two different kinds of data. Devs won't rely on third party tools, they have to work with their own set of tools (some may share a functionality to track dps, positioning, timing, battle consistency and many other aspects of the content. But it's not their job to track what raiders track, performance. Well, at some point they do have to track that, but at a much broader audience than just raider. It will affect the iLv of the gear, the stats of the items that players have at their disposal. It is just stupid (for a lack of a better word) to try to address issues regarding end game design without considering the problem these tools represent to palyers regardless of demographic.

[hobostew]

snips

I think we've reached the point where game developers are damned if they do and damned if they don't when it comes to pleasing the MMO community. In MoP they listened to the community again and the complaints started once more that everything was too easy. So we move over to WoD where they more or less took a chance at simply giving people what they thought would be fun and now the complaint has become "The developers aren't listening to us!". The community has become like a pack of angry nerd babies that can't be pleased no matter what any developer does.

I'm pretty sure even if they go ahead and ease up on the difficulty of savage alex the raiding community won't be pleased. They'll just scream that everything is nerfed and that they want their challenge back. Now, should they ease up on the difficulty if the majority of raiders are having trouble with it? Probably. I just don't think it'll make the same people complain any less.