The issue nobody wants to address

[Kosmos992k]

**snip**

I very clearly did not mention end-game content, and the parallel I drew was explicitly 4-man content. I feel you miseed the point. You mentioned the Demon Wall in AK, which I've mentioned in such discussions before also. I said that as long as players were capable of completing content, preferrably without a wipe, doing damage agequate to complete the content, they were meeting the goals, targets or expectations implicit in the content itself.

In short if you expect a fast 4-man 'relay' then pre-form the group from competitive players, when using DF be prepared to accept the fun runners.

Let me be clear, I am not referring to end-game content.

The point is that bringing the mentallity and tools of competitive running to fun runners doesn't enhance them, it either alienates them, or possibly turns them into competitive runners with more limited capability to perform. Whatever happens, making fun runners conform to competitive running mentallity and tool use, fundamentally changes the fun run into pseudo competitive running, which isn't what the fun runners wanted or else they'd already be doing it.

Requests for in-game parsing tools and demands for faster runs with the clear corollary being players are bad for not doing these things, are - imho - simply leading toa greater divide between players.

In the end, with regard to parsers and speedof completing a run, I stand by the comparison I drew against fun funners and competitive runners running 4-man relay races.

[Ryel]

I very clearly did not mention end-game content, and the parallel I drew was explicitly 4-man content. I feel you miseed the point. You mentioned the Demon Wall in AK, which I've mentioned in such discussions before also. I said that as long as players were capable of completing content, preferrably without a wipe, doing damage agequate to complete the content, they were meeting the goals, targets or expectations implicit in the content itself.

If you're going to accuse someone of missing the point, please be sure to read the entire post as i specifically adressed both endgame and 4-man content multiple times.

like here:

Whenever players talk about adding these features what is stated above is what they're referring to, nobody really cares what happens in 4-man content usually, unless there is a DPS check involved (see: Demon wall on release.) Or the discrepancy between two players is so large that it might as well be just one player doing all of the work. However they do care when it comes to something like Bismark Ex, or Savage Alexander, I once again welcome you to take a stroll over to youtube to find out why.

The discrepancy part is the big one, meeting the goal is one thing. But how you do so is another.

Let me be clear, I am not referring to end-game content.

The point is that bringing the mentallity and tools of competitive running to fun runners doesn't enhance them, it either alienates them, or possibly turns them into competitive runners with more limited capability to perform. Whatever happens, making fun runners conform to competitive running mentallity and tool use, fundamentally changes the fun run into pseudo competitive running, which isn't what the fun runners wanted or else they'd already be doing it.

Requests for in-game parsing tools and demands for faster runs with the clear corollary being players are bad for not doing these things, are - imho - simply leading toa greater divide between players.

In the end, with regard to parsers and speedof completing a run, I stand by the comparison I drew against fun funners and competitive runners running 4-man relay races.

Which i addressed here:

And as said before, If tanks and healers can have their performance be so transparent in everything they do ranging from 4-man content to endgame, why are DPS not subject to the same accountability?

You make the comparison to ending up with fun runners in 4-mans, but i promise you the fun running tank that can't hold hate or doesn't mitigate damage, or the fun running healer that doesn't heal party members will very quickly find themselves warming the bench.

please read the entire post.

[Kosmos992k]

**snip**

I did read your post, as I read your reply. I still think you are not seeing what I am saying at all, or simply don't want to see it because it conflicts with your point of view. It doesn't matter though, since we are clearly talking past each other. You appear to me to be saying that this topic/discussion isn't about regular content, but rather end-game and hard content. I'm making a more general point about the use of tools such as parsers and how that may impact different parts of the community.

From the OP;

Let's face it, there is an issue with this game's community somehow subconsciously or even conciously being against faster dungeon runs, playing your class more efficiently, or even just playing well period.

**snip**
I personally don't mind considering I can form my own groups but I question the mentality of the players who oppose any sort of tool (parsers) or even the usage of str accessories on a tank simply because of unknown reasons? Why be against a faster run explain to me please.

I think the fact that this mentality is so rampant is an issue and further incentives should be given to encourage the community to put in more effort into how they play

That's the context I am posting in.

[Ryel]

I did read your post, as I read your reply. I still think you are not seeing what I am saying at all, or simply don't want to see it because it conflicts with your point of view. It doesn't matter though, since we are clearly talking past each other. You appear to me to be saying that this topic/discussion isn't about regular content, but rather end-game and hard content. I'm making a more general point about the use of tools such as parsers and how that may impact different parts of the community.

Actually I've spoken about 4-man content multiple times, even quoted it for you. Just because i mentioned endgame as well it doesn't make my post entirely about endgame as much as you would like to see it as such.

So let me make it as clear as i can.

As far as dungeons are concerned a metric of performance does still apply, It just matters less so.

Having a metric of measurement in 4 man content is still beneficial as I've mentioned before. I specifically brought up that in 4 man content, regardless of how fast you do or don't want the run to be completed the level of play of a tank or a healer is still exposed for the party to see, which compared to a DPS they currently have no measure of accountability.

Why is this?

We as a playerbase seem to have zero issues with giving a tank or a healer flack for either not keeping aggro, staying alive, or keeping the party alive, yet when it comes to DPS the answer seems to be "well as long as the run is completed who cares?" because there are no incentives to encourage more players to become proficient at their jobs.

This eventually does bleed over to trial content when things like Bismark normal and Story Ravana aren't being cleared, and then eventually endgame when these same players try to join Bismark Ex parties and don't know how to play their jobs.

This is where i bring up the point of MMO history in regards to performance assessment tools and player harassment in low man content. Plenty of games that have used them over the past decade usually don't run into issues unless instances are taking far longer than they should be, something that happens fairly commonly in this game. More often than not this isn't a result of malice but simply the fact that players have no idea how well they are or aren't performing and by extension the game gives them no reason or way to actually improve.

You keep bringing up this point of players who are more "competitive" with their performance running the risk of running into those who aren't and just dealing with it when it comes to the speed of dungeon completion, but that argument once again only applies to DPS because we as a community have no issues with kicking a tank or a healer who obviously isn't pulling their weight.

Just because the bar is far, far lower in 4 man content when it comes to performance versus end game content, doesn't mean the bar doesn't exist.

EDIT: Once again concerning impact, over a decades worth and dozens of worldwide MMOs have shown that the impact on player harassment is negligible because players harass each other anyway. Nobody is going to go parse Nazi on the majority of players in a 4 man dungeon, but they might say something if a BRD is doing 1/4th the damage of a healer.

[Elazu]

Having a metric of measurement in 4 man content is still beneficial as I've mentioned before. I specifically brought up that in 4 man content, regardless of how fast you do or don't want the run to be completed the level of play of a tank or a healer is still exposed for the party to see, which compared to a DPS they currently have no measure of accountability.

Why is this?

This question has been asked multiple times in multiple threads, but the anti-parser crowd always ignores it.

[Colorful]

This question has been asked multiple times in multiple threads, but the anti-parser crowd always ignores it.

Can't answer something that has no reasonable answer really, the only argument they have is possible harassment, but that tends to not be as bad nowadays as it was early WoW. Was playing WildStar and one of the DPS was doing half the damage of the 2nd in lead DPS, but no one yelled at him even though we ended up wiping on the final boss a few times due to that last DPS check. Harassment is going to be a thing parser or not, jerks are going to continue to be jerks with or without them, it's just with parsers they'll have another way to be jerks. Oh, there have been more than a few times someone was bitching and poor DPS when they were doing the lowest in FFXIV, it's always very amusing.

[Sapphic]

I said that as long as players were capable of completing content, preferrably without a wipe, doing damage adequate to complete the content, they were meeting the goals, targets or expectations implicit in the content itself.

No-one has a problem when content IS getting cleared.

The problem is when someone is WAY underperforming to the minimum needed to clear content yet have it in their mind that the either don't care or they just blindly blame everyone else. A parser will allow the others to point out who is causing the failure to complete the content and either replace or assist. IF they get replaced then they should take it as a wakeup call to improve to no longer be removed in the future.

If the tank underperforms is easy to spot who it is, because there is one tank. If the healer fails to perform it is easy to spot, as one healer. If one DPS underperforms, not so much. A parser will put all DPS at the same accountability as the healer and the tank, how is that not fair?

Underperforming tanks and healers get abused from the same DPS who are scared to show the same level of acocuntability by vocally being against parsers. So they can give it, but put some facts in front of them and they go all a running.

[Kosmos992k]

No-one has a problem when content IS getting cleared.

The problem is when someone is WAY underperforming to the minimum needed to clear content yet have it in their mind that the either don't care or they just blindly blame everyone else. **snip**
Underperforming tanks and healers get abused from the same DPS who are scared to show the same level of acocuntability by vocally being against parsers. So they can give it, but put some facts in front of them and they go all a running.

I understand that, but I point blank refuse to believe that a player with decent knowledge of the game can't identify when dps is lower than it should be and who the weak link is especially in 4-man content. Are you honestly saying thaton any 4-man content you can't tell when one or other DPS is low? I just think that for regular conent, parsers are unnecessary,and only when it is needed for everyone to do near optimal dps does parsing become useful in helping players to perfect their play.

[Sapphic]

I understand that, but I point blank refuse to believe that a player with decent knowledge of the game can't identify when dps is lower than it should be and who the weak link is especially in 4-man content. Are you honestly saying thaton any 4-man content you can't tell when one or other DPS is low? I just think that for regular conent, parsers are unnecessary,and only when it is needed for everyone to do near optimal dps does parsing become useful in helping players to perfect their play.

Well what happens, which it does way too often, when you identify the problem and they refuse to listen? Or even register the fact you are trying to help, or worst case, get all abusive? A parser will let the other say, look, you are doing something wrong, the numbers show it without doubt, try this instead.

Also. I don't know BLMs rotation at 60. So why should I have to read up on a job I'm not playing just to help someone who is too lazy to even read the tooltips?

[Kosmos992k]

Well what happens, which it does way too often, when you identify the problem and they refuse to listen? Or even register the fact you are trying to help, or worst case, get all abusive? A parser will let the other say, look, you are doing something wrong, the numbers show it without doubt, try this instead.

Also. I don't know BLMs rotation at 60. So why should I have to read up on a job I'm not playing just to help someone who is too lazy to even read the tooltips?

A person unreceptive to helpful advice will remain just as unreceptive if you're armed with parser data, and even if there were an official parser add-on, I think SE will contnue to respond to respond to reports of 'abuse'. I agree you shouldn't have to read up on other job rotations, but you'll surely realize there is a problem with a BLM who never transitions,or sticks to one or two skills.

Fundamentally though, people who already don't want to listen to advice would seem (to me, at least) more likely to be even more annoyed if parser data is used 'against' them as well.