Bard - they broke my job

[Vinestra]

Sounds like the design SE wants. AFAIK the idea is you get 200 less dps for your "support songs" you're not supposed to do as much as other dps that have full kits for doing damage, even with 200 less dps bards can still do impressively high damage. My friend has a static where they cleared A3S with bard, mch, drg, and mch.

You do know the reason WHY bard dealt less damage was because they had movement/instant skills, now in 3.0 No movement/Caster bars now. The songs all ready come with a damage debuff % to it (was it 20%? or was it nerfed don't remember). Bards are more or less dealing 2.55's damage currently (percentage difference), because.. they gave up movement in favour of being a turret and having cast times to deal more damage? Doesn't help that all the pre 52 skills aren't designed around Wanderers minuet either (besides barrage).

[Warlyx]

Bards are more or less dealing 2.55's damage currently (percentage difference), because.. they gave up movement in favour of being a turret and having cast times to deal more damage?

thats my main issue , we are dealing the same dmg (% wise) and lost movement... others job gained QOL changes and new fun mechanics / gameplay .....what we gained in HW? because it feels that we got nerfed (WM) and gained nothing in return....

30% dmg on the stance still we are in the same spot we were in 2.5 dmg wise... now we have cast bars tho

[RiceisNice]

thats my main issue , we are dealing the same dmg (% wise) and lost movement... others job gained QOL changes and new fun mechanics / gameplay .....what we gained in HW? because it feels that we got nerfed (WM) and gained nothing in return....

30% dmg on the stance still we are in the same spot we were in 2.5 dmg wise... now we have cast bars tho

My issue is that the concept of cast bars itself adds nothing engaging to me (as a BRD who didn't move anyway during 2.0 anyway, this is nothing groundbreaking or revolutionary), but rather introduced new problems that come because of how the cast bars interact with BRD skills.

Double it up with the fact that they gave the same gimmick to MCH and now the two jobs play similar to each other because of it.

[Vinestra]

My issue is that the concept of cast bars itself adds nothing engaging to me (as a BRD who didn't move anyway during 2.0 anyway, this is nothing groundbreaking or revolutionary), but rather introduced new problems that come because of how the cast bars interact with BRD skills.

Double it up with the fact that they gave the same gimmick to MCH and now the two jobs play similar to each other because of it.

Atleast ONE of them was designed with the mechanic in mind.

[Judge_Xero]

thats my main issue , we are dealing the same dmg (% wise) and lost movement... others job gained QOL changes and new fun mechanics / gameplay .....what we gained in HW? because it feels that we got nerfed (WM) and gained nothing in return....

30% dmg on the stance still we are in the same spot we were in 2.5 dmg wise... now we have cast bars tho

Not sure how BRD can be where it was in 2.5. 50-60 brought

Empyreal Arrow 220 Potency @ 15s adjusted by Skill Speed (286 adjusted with WM)
Sidewinder 250 Potency buffed by dots (325 with WM)
Iron Jaw (huge gain - 580 Potency for 1 GCD VS 640 for 2 GCD - without counting the bonus from WM)
AOE potential with WM + RoD adjustment

I'm too lazy to figure out how much BRD increased with Potency/sec but it looks pretty nice, especially where multi dotting and AOE come in.

[RiceisNice]

Not sure how BRD can be where it was in 2.5. 50-60 brought

Empyreal Arrow 220 Potency @ 15s adjusted by Skill Speed (286 adjusted with WM)
Sidewinder 250 Potency buffed by dots (325 with WM)
Iron Jaw (huge gain - 580 Potency for 1 GCD VS 640 for 2 GCD - without counting the bonus from WM)
AOE potential with WM + RoD adjustment

I'm too lazy to figure out how much BRD increased with Potency/sec but it looks pretty nice, especially where multi dotting and AOE come in.

Youd have to factor in the damage loss from auto attacks, specifically, auto attacks that are paired with barrage, HE and B4B (which honestly, is more potent in the long run than our current barrage will ever be assuming equal gear, especially since each auto attack can crit)


Also for ironjaws, you'd have to take it outside of the vaccum of comparing the skill vs reapplying the two bites. TP issues aside, WB is 330, VN is 310, IJ is 580. But the latter is assuming you let all the ticks hit and you don't overshoot the refresh by a second (while at the same time not risking the drop).

And lastly with multi-dotting, this is really where the OGCD-Clipping can hurt you in regards to trying to catch all the procs and use your weaponskills. Compared to 2.0, your weaponskills will get pushedback/delayed at times because of overlapping oGCDs, espesically in regards to empyreal arrow that'll delay the cast of your next weaponskill no matter what if you use it right after a weaponskill. You won't be able to get your weaponskills in as it comes off cooldown is what I'm saying, which can lead to lower output outside of objectively looking at potency count.

[Judge_Xero]

Youd have to factor in the damage loss from auto attacks, specifically, auto attacks that are paired with barrage, HE and B4B (which honestly, is more potent in the long run than our current barrage will ever be assuming equal gear, especially since each auto attack can crit)

Also for ironjaws, you'd have to take it outside of the vaccum of comparing the skill vs reapplying the two bites. TP issues aside, WB is 330, VN is 310, IJ is 580. But the latter is assuming you let all the ticks hit and you don't overshoot the refresh by a second (while at the same time not risking the drop).

And lastly with multi-dotting, this is really where the OGCD-Clipping can hurt you in regards to trying to catch all the procs and use your weaponskills. Compared to 2.0, your weaponskills will get pushedback/delayed at times because of overlapping oGCDs, espesically in regards to empyreal arrow that'll delay the cast of your next weaponskill no matter what if you use it right after a weaponskill. You won't be able to get your weaponskills in as it comes off cooldown is what I'm saying, which can lead to lower output outside of objectively looking at potency count
.

Very good points. I didn't consider the difference of the new Barrage VS old Barrage.
old Barrage ~ 100 Potency * 3 over 10 seconds (900 Potency + Crit potential)
new Barrage ~ 3 X 286 Potency (EA) @ GCD lenght (858 Potency + no crit chance)

So old Barrage does appear better other than the risk of not hitting your 3X barrage or not facing target. But skilled bards don't do that anyway.
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The same risks could be associated with reapplication of Bard VB/WB as just using IJ. So definitely a gain + extra WS on top of any additional mobs you are multi dotting. (outside of missing the reapplication entirely and only doing a 100 Potency attack, which shouldn't happen)

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Multi-Dotting does get messy for sure. Not arguing that Bard doesn't need QoL fixes for oGCD management. Was just saying that the new 3.0 tools for bard is a net gain compared to 2.0.

This is about the only spot Brd has a significant increase over how it used to be, but on a single target this isn't true. Have to remember when factoring potency we have Passive traits that increase action damage by 10% and 20% as well as the +30% WM. Other jobs have skills that have potency of 300+ without factoring any additional traits or buffs in effect, so I'm sorry but all that did was act as a bandaid to a blemish. Covers up the problem, but doesn't really make it go away.

But buffs are also multiplicative of each other as well. So while WM is a 30% buff, with IAC it's actually 36% (100 Potency * 1.2 = 120, add in WM and you have 120 * 1.3 = 156 Potency)

So while DRG has a 3 Tier combo 150, 200, 360 etc, BRD is doing 234 Potency per hit with WM, with a 150 Potency HS.

Another factor is that weapon damage as a whole for both brd and mch. We effectively hat 10% less weapon damage also in comparison to other physical DPS. Anyone who knows anything about the damage calculation formula knows this is the biggest deciding factor in damage output - IE getting that bow for 900 ESO is better than getting that body for 825 ESO.

This doesn't really work like you may think it works. Yes WD is a modifier for Damage and yes BRD is lower than melee. But because BRD is scaled to the lower WD, each point of WD is worth more than a melee. This works in inverse for magic classes where their Magic Damage @ i210 is 105. Each class is balanced around it's Potency/second and it's gear scales accordingly.

Also, because of this BRD scales extremely well with secondary stats and WD. Where a magic class would scale well with MD, good with INT, and ok with Secondary stats.

Yet we are always 10% lower than any other physical DPS and still have lower potency skills on top of it. Thus there are many deciding factors as to why we have comparatively less output than any other job, but when SE codes clunkiness in and over nerfs attacks this only makes it far more noticable. Used to be this was a fair trade - consistent damage while avoiding mechanics that required a brd to play in this way at times. Now it isn't quite so seeing as they made us be a turret to 'gain' dps. If this were true then we'd have comparative damage to where we were at 2.5 without WM and increased damage while in WM as a trade off. I only bring this up as this was the main reason they nerfed the hell out of certain sub buffs for brd around 2.1. Everyone moaned and complained that brd was doing too much spike damage on top of mobility....now that isn't so and we are still being punished in the long run.

Playing both BRD and MCN, I can definitely agree that BRD's mobility has been reduced way too much to warrant the reduced DPS compared to a Melee class. MCN can do similar DPS but is much more mobile and has very similar utility, albeit BRD utility is much better.

I don't think that BRD is weak on paper, and better mobility and oGCD management would really be all it needs.

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Leader Board Ranking for my World
Opressor
DRG 1174 113%
BRD 1041 100%
SMN 1143 110%

Cuff of the Father
DRG 1590 106%
BRD 1500 100%
SMN 2200 146% - Not a great value to Balance by, due to SMN just being a beast in this Fight.

Living Liquid
DRG 1175 125%
BRD 939 100%
SMN 1100 117%

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Comparing to Second Coil (couldn't find any First Coil data as that would have been a better comparison due to being at the same level of gear progression VS 3.0)

But BRD for the most part was 15%-20% below any top DPS value in Second Coil.

Comparing to FCOB BRD was ~ 10-15% below any top DPS

I imagine that in First Coil Bard was ~ 20-25% below any top DPS, as the trend follows a 5% gap closure based on gear progression.

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The only turn that is truly bad for Bard is A3S, which is IMO due to it's limited ability to move. Otherwise for the most part, Bard is further ahead in the first set of Endgame content than it was in 2.0. Which leads me to believe that that gap will only lessen in future content due to the level of secondary stat scaling Bard has, specifically Crit. Obviously given some slight QoL fixes in order to properly utilize the extra oGCD leverage the class has.

If Bard had a bit more mobility and a better way to weave oGCDs, I'm sure A3S would improve to ~1050 DPS, which would only leave the other classes at ~10%-12%

Following that trend, and then considering how other classes scale with the same stats, Bard should be on course to be within 5% of top DPS for the last set of Alexander Raids.

[Kitkat]

I'm too lazy to figure out how much BRD increased with Potency/sec but it looks pretty nice, especially where multi dotting and AOE come in.

This is about the only spot Brd has a significant increase over how it used to be, but on a single target this isn't true. Have to remember when factoring potency we have Passive traits that increase action damage by 10% and 20% as well as the +30% WM. Other jobs have skills that have potency of 300+ without factoring any additional traits or buffs in effect, so I'm sorry but all that did was act as a bandaid to a blemish. Covers up the problem, but doesn't really make it go away.

Another factor is that weapon damage as a whole for both brd and mch. We effectively hat 10% less weapon damage also in comparison to other physical DPS. Anyone who knows anything about the damage calculation formula knows this is the biggest deciding factor in damage output - IE getting that bow for 900 ESO is better than getting that body for 825 ESO.

Yet we are always 10% lower than any other physical DPS and still have lower potency skills on top of it. Thus there are many deciding factors as to why we have comparatively less output than any other job, but when SE codes clunkiness in and over nerfs attacks this only makes it far more noticable. Used to be this was a fair trade - consistent damage while avoiding mechanics that required a brd to play in this way at times. Now it isn't quite so seeing as they made us be a turret to 'gain' dps. If this were true then we'd have comparative damage to where we were at 2.5 without WM and increased damage while in WM as a trade off. I only bring this up as this was the main reason they nerfed the hell out of certain sub buffs for brd around 2.1. Everyone moaned and complained that brd was doing too much spike damage on top of mobility....now that isn't so and we are still being punished in the long run.

[Aiselia]

Not sure how BRD can be where it was in 2.5.

Because everybody else also got increases to their damage. Additionally, Bards still get their 10% less WD inherent nerf and with bigger WD numbers, that's a bigger gap. When other classes had 58 in 2.x, BRDs had 52, a difference of 6. Now other classes are at 76, while Bards are at 68, a difference of 8. A Bard Gordian/upgraded Eso weapon has the same WD as a DRG's Bismarck weapon and less than a DRG's upgraded Law by 2 points.

Also, you didn't factor in the loss of auto-attacks under WM and change to Barrage. When calculating someone's relative damage, you can't just ignore the negatives and only put forth positives. You're also not factoring in the fact that in 2.x, BRD could have 100% uptime while fighting at full damage unless they needed to do mechanics that would stop them. Movement now demands either doing lower-damage instant attacks like Feint if it's only a short movement amount, or turning off 30% WD if it's longer.

So yes, if you ignore the objective removals of damage sources and ignore that every other class also got increases to their own damage and ignore that there's a widening gap in weapon damage and only focus on what Bards DID gain, then I guess it would look confusing how Bards aren't topping DPS charts.

[RiceisNice]

Because everybody else also got increases to their damage. Additionally, Bards still get their 10% less WD inherent nerf and with bigger WD numbers, that's a bigger gap. When other classes had 58 in 2.x, BRDs had 52, a difference of 6. Now other classes are at 76, while Bards are at 68, a difference of 8. A Bard Gordian/upgraded Eso weapon has the same WD as a DRG's Bismarck weapon and less than a DRG's upgraded Law by 2 points.

Also, you didn't factor in the loss of auto-attacks under WM and change to Barrage. When calculating someone's relative damage, you can't just ignore the negatives and only put forth positives. You're also not factoring in the fact that in 2.x, BRD could have 100% uptime while fighting at full damage unless they needed to do mechanics that would stop them. Movement now demands either doing lower-damage instant attacks like Feint if it's only a short movement amount, or turning off 30% WD if it's longer.

So yes, if you ignore the objective removals of damage sources and ignore that every other class also got increases to their own damage and ignore that there's a widening gap in weapon damage and only focus on what Bards DID gain, then I guess it would look confusing how Bards aren't topping DPS charts.

If the weapon damage difference stayed the same percentage wise as it was in 2.0, then that alone would not count for BRD's drop in damage compared to 2.5. Although you are right in the regard that BRD is the only class that had "lost" something (cant say the same for MCH since they didn't exist in 2.x, but the context is the same) that contributed to their damage previously. WM is not an objective increase in damage until you get the abilties attached to it, and it's certainly not a straight increase to output to the same extent the other jobs have.

I've always said that BRD's (and by extension, MCH) dps is still behind by "true dps" classes by the same percentage as it was back in 2.x to argue that WM doesn't "increase damage" anymore as the other jobs have with their new post-50 abilities. But at the same time, I wouldn't be surprised if they're also doing less percentage wise compared to 2.x either due to oversights in the grand scheme of things (auto attacks, delaying weapon skills and oGCD clipping), because it was certainly the case in 3.05 and the buff from 20% to 30% is honestly just a bandaid fix if anything.