The issue nobody wants to address

[Auraelyn]

Why? Because too many of the elitists "git gud" asshats forget that this game also welcomes people NEW to mmorpg. Just because you may have been playing since before the beta was an alpha doesn't mean everyone else has too. Yoshi P addresses this concept in an interview. He wants everyone to be welcome. He wants everyone to play at their own pace, in their own style. Personally, I see a poor player in a random as a challenge to me to be better, not to take the opportunity to turn someone off and away from the game. Gentle constructive advice is one thing. Harrassment and rudeness just to be rude is amazingly immature and counter-productive. It certainly won't inspire that person to improve! That is just not how human psychology works!

Besides, and quite honestly, if an expert player (especially dps) finds the run still going slowly, there's a problem with BOTH dps not just one! Take your own advice and "git gud"!

[Colorful]

Ima be honest. If SE did away with regular mobs in dungeons and left only the minibosses and final bosses. I'd be ok with that, infact, I'd prolly enjoy doing dungeons more... If we wanted to zerg mobs we would just go do fates anyway.

This just leaves dungeons end up feeling empty, like FFXIV's Coil and Alexander. I think the problem is how they handle trash in FFXIV, I was playing Wildstar and it reminded me how things used to be with dungeons, in WoW too. you'd have large areas with a lot of mobs, but the catch is they died quickly, so instead of killing one godly bee in 20 seconds, you'd kill 5-10 weaker bees in 20. That feels a lot more fun to me as it feels like you're progressing faster. FFXIV dungeons feel like a crawl, a tedious, boring crawl. The Vault is better in this regard, more adds with less health, and relatively difficult bosses (seriously why is the Vault harder than Neverreap and Fractal, "expert dungeon"...).

[TouchandFeel]

My general feeling about the trash feeling boring is because that is pretty much how to they are designed, to be a fairly basic group of basic mobs that do pretty much the same thing that you have seen before just with more HP and they hit harder.

This is fine to a point and it pretty much functions as its supposed to, as filler, but it does make trash feel boring.

Personally I would like to see more elements of previous bosses added to trash mobs to make them more interesting and require more strategy.
For example, what if there was a trash pack that had two hard hitting mobs that would tether together and become immune to damage if they were too close to each other, so you had to keep them apart? Do you get a dps to try to tank one of them, do you try to stun lock or sleep one, how would you handle it in a light party?
This is the kind of stuff I would like to see more of with trash mobs.

[Iromi]

Yes and no.

Steps of faith wasn't just content it was part of the main scenario quest line lol it might have not been bad to some of us but to others it was almost impossible and locking them out of progression and that is a big no no everyone has to be able to progress in the MSQ story line...

Yea, exactly..it was bad cuz they put it as a gate to the expansion..lol don't put stuff like that as a requirement to access an expansion...

They should put some nice rewarding gear/weapons/stuff behind this sorta content ^^ AND THEY NEED TO STOP NERFING EVERYTHING TO THE GROUND..lol

[Urthdigger]

The fact that someone is saying that it's "not okay" to be bad at a game is just making me really angry.

I can never be good, I know that. My brain can't handle doing all the abilities needed for a proper rotation and I can't process seeing an AoE fast enough to be able to dodge it every time..then add endgame content with some stressful music with a fast beat and 7 other people yelling at me how much I suck.

But you will NOT tell me I am not allowed to play this game, because I LIKE THE GAME.

Not only that, I'm a young person with these issues. I have older friends who are basically shut in their homes because of their age and illnesses and FFXIV is their only fun they have left in life anymore, until I have to listen to them cry because some self entitled douche who for some reason thinks being good at a video game is some sort of accomplishment in life went and told them they should kill themselves for making their dungeon run 5 minutes longer than usual.

At the same time, your poor behavior has an impact on all the poor souls running the dungeon with you. I don't ask that my DPS do perfect rotations, but the number of times I've had a dungeon FAIL because DPS totally tunnelvision and miss the mechanic they need to hit, or flail about so poorly that they can't hit the DPS check even when overgeared for the dungeon understandably makes me angry.

This is a cooperative game, which means everyone has to put in their effort. If everyone else has to put in far more effort than you do just for the group to survive the dungeon, that's where I draw the line. DPS shouldn't be a license to putz around doing stuff a healer or tank would get totally reamed for.

[Kat_Manx]

At the same time, your poor behavior has an impact on all the poor souls running the dungeon with you. I don't ask that my DPS do perfect rotations, but the number of times I've had a dungeon FAIL because DPS totally tunnelvision and miss the mechanic they need to hit, or flail about so poorly that they can't hit the DPS check even when overgeared for the dungeon understandably makes me angry.

This is a cooperative game, which means everyone has to put in their effort. If everyone else has to put in far more effort than you do just for the group to survive the dungeon, that's where I draw the line. DPS shouldn't be a license to putz around doing stuff a healer or tank would get totally reamed for.

Oh please, 90% of the time the issue a party is having is an entitled Tank or Healer being too busy complaining instead of actually doing their job, and if someone actually has the guts to kick them and they get replaced, suddenly the party runs smoothly, which clearly indicates none of the DPS were to blame. Then they come to these forums to whine, I assume, while we finish the dungeon.

Besides, yet again, my post was clearly talking about people who DO put in effort, but fail.

[Gyson]

I don't even play a DPS class here (and rarely do in other games), but I can honestly say I liked FFXIV more when the focus was on respecting the mechanics of a fight, *not* DPS checks.

For example, I hate that players of a class like "Bard" have to all use what is basically the same very long list of abilities for the "opener", and then stick to a priority rotation that leaves very little room for individual innovation and personality. Yeah, that looks fun. Not.

What's really sad is I have seen players that I consider to be "above average" (in terms of being able to play smartly, follow instructions, grasp mechanics quickly, take responsibility, having a good attitude, etc) suddenly be looked down upon in favor of damage dealers who happen to have higher meter scores but suck in every other category. That's just messed up.

I just wish people could have fun with their DPS classes again, dealing reasonable damage, but playing smartly while supporting their team. That's what (used to be) different about FFXIV. Now it's back to arguing about his damage output vs her damage output vs their damage output vs.. cripes, I thought I left that nonsense behind when I came to play something more mentally stimulating over here.

[OPneedNerfs]

I don't understand the mentality of players who play dps but can't/worry that they can't put out the numbers. If DPS rotations are too difficult, why not go tank? There are literally no complicated rotations for you to do your job properly and since you won't be in endgame progression when they are relevant, tanking for anything else is literally a breeze.

[Aomine1992]

snip

Yea I completely regret maining a dps class especially freaking DRG, I use to have so much fun then hit 60 and started doing end game content and I'm like nope nope nope this is not fun anymore, it's not that I can't meet my requirements for dps but that's not the point, this current end game content has put a heavy burden on dps that obviously can't be met as we seem to need tanks and healers to dps just as much....

i just don't like the idea that all our rotations have to be the same or we arnt optimal even if there isn't a difference in dps out put..

but by no means am I applauding bad dps but "git gud" is a very stupid term used to loosely it wasn't meant to be derogatory but a lot of ppl have turned it into that...

[Reinha]

Just try to take into consideration the difference between people trying and failing vs. those who don't try. Because EVERYONE assumes that they just don't try.

Yoshi P addresses this concept in an interview. He wants everyone to be welcome. He wants everyone to play at their own pace, in their own style. Personally, I see a poor player in a random as a challenge to me to be better, not to take the opportunity to turn someone off and away from the game. Gentle constructive advice is one thing. Harrassment and rudeness just to be rude is amazingly immature and counter-productive. It certainly won't inspire that person to improve! That is just not how human psychology works!

Well said, both of you. Just as there are misconceptions about raiders being jerks and spending excessive amounts of time in the game, there are misconceptions about bad players being lazy and making mistakes on purpose. Some good players assume the bad player has the skill and knowledge to do better at that moment and is performing badly for malicious reasons. No sane person can make such rookie mistakes, right? The good player then responds to that (assumed) malicious behavior with insults or rude advice ("fking move out"). They fail to realize that the other player might not be making mistakes on purpose. It could be a senior citizen who has only recently learned to use a computer. It could be a young person who hasn't learned English yet and usually plays with their older sibling, not knowing why everyone keeps repeating his/her name in chat. It could be a disabled person, someone with cognitive issues or a person new to multiplayer gaming (some people genuinely don't consider the possibility that the other characters are real people).

I don't think it's right to tell someone to quit on the basis that they don't meet someone's arbitrary level of good play. Everyone should be welcome here. I think the reason a lot of these debates get heated is that people are talking past each others points. Good/PvE-oriented players are talking about ex trials, raids and expert dungeons, whereas others are talking about story dungeons and nm/hm trials. Just for the record, the above paragraph is mainly related to story content, and imo it's fine to exclude people who bring the group down when it comes to harder content with dps checks. I just wish people had more patience in easy content and took a bad group as a challenge to better themselves instead of getting pissy, because a lot of the time the dungeon is still doable even if you have to carry someone. It would help in building a more accepting community for sure.