Raider to Non-Raider: an exhibition on thoughts and misconceptions

[SevenHeavens]

is there a summary of the summary somewhere?

[Spellbinder]

I've read the original post (well, 85% of it at least). I'm getting the impression that you're drawing comparisons between players completing normal Binding Coil of Bahamut and savage Alexander. Is that correct? If so, may I ask why you're not comparing savage to savage?

With zero changes between normal and savage's story or build-up, savage was stale before it even showed up to the dinner table. We had a stale story going into a mind numbingly hard raid.

This was the exact same situation with savage during the 2.x series, and there was nowhere near the same outcry on the forums then as there is now.

I will admit that I have not tried Alexander savage and I have no intention to. I know I do not have the time nor the desire to aspire to that level of play. With that said, I do have a question that has been burning in my mind since the release of Heavensward.

What has changed that made savage so desirable in 3.0, when you couldn't pay your average player to attempt savage during the 2.x series? Why has savage become the new standard, when it was ignored before?

[Natashio]

I need the cliff's notes on this thing... I can't stand it anymore.

[Fynlar]

I find myself sympathizing more with whoever it was the OP quoted rather than whatever the OP was saying.

What has changed that made savage so desirable in 3.0, when you couldn't pay your average player to attempt savage during the 2.x series? Why has savage become the new standard, when it was ignored before?

Gear, duh. Right now if you want i210 stuff it ONLY comes from Alex Savage. SCoB Savage offered nothing but titles and the game explicitly tells you when you unlock it that it's purely for the glory rather than rewards.

If SCoB Savage was offering i120-135 gear before WoD/FCoB/poetics were a thing, you bet more people would have at least tried it, whether or not they were actually succeeded.

Another thing is that far fewer people had access to SCoB Savage (even now, I'd bet) because it still required a T9 clear, something which I'm sure still eludes many players. Whereas getting access to Alex Savage was a whole lot easier.

[Kyne_Lyons]

The people who are taking the time to post that they didn't read the OP are the worst people in this thread.

[Chiramu]

tl;dr

/10char

People seem to think the longer a post is the more intelligent it is...

[Dree-Elle]

This was the same situation with savage during the 2.x series, and there was nowhere near the same outcry on the forums then as there is now.
What changed that made savage so desirable in 3.0, when you couldn't pay your average player to attempt savage during the 2.x series? Why has savage become the new standard, when it was ignored before?

Gear, pure and simple. Savage Coil gave no upgrade whatsoever over the gear one could get in Normal SCoB, whereas the gear in Savage Alex is a 20 iLvl boost (210 vs. 190).

[zosia]

Certainly a well thought out and contemplative analysis of the issue at hand, and I will say that the divide between raider and non-raider is a rather contentious issue with a lot of moving parts. I am fortunate enough to see the issue from both sides, having been a long-time hardcore raider pushing the bleeding edge of hardcore content in Lord of the Rings Online for the last several years I played it. I know what the struggles are and I know the joy that can be found in a hard-fought victory.


That being said, unfortunately like it happens with all too many, I no longer have the luxury of the time I once had and my usual window of 8-10pm raids every night just doesn't work any more. The constraints the current hardcore raiding environment is party to just won't work for me in any regard. Many people have said, “If you want to do it, then make the time and do it.” But this doesn't always work in the real world and it's not that I don't -want- to have the time to do it, but that I simply don't have it, like many others.

If you are afforded of a good deal of free time to push the content, then that's good and by all means you should be free to do so. I don't think there's been a single person on the more 'casual' side who has argued that the hard-core raiders should have anything taken away from them, and yet it seems that whenever those in my particular position request that we have something a little bit more suitable for our needs that many in the raiding community come out and decry it as degrading their experience. Like we're asking for a handout instead of a hand-up.

The other issue that is cropping up, and I notice it terribly so on my own server, that even if you manage to make the time, actually getting into a static that is challenging the content is extremely difficult. At this point you need to provide data that proves that you know what you're doing (even if that data is technically against TOS to generate with the current system). A lot of statics are expecting people to come in knowing the mechanics as well, and it's nigh impossible to learn the mechanics of a fight that you've never actually been in since you can't get into the static to do them in the first place.

The drive to beat the content, to get past the head-smashing on that wall drives groups to fall apart, but it also takes those very same groups and gives them the mindset, “If we take anyone who doesn't know things already and makes us have to teach them, we'll never win so we can never take them.” And that mentality only further perpetuates the downward cycle and breaks the raiding community even more.

I've maintained personally, throughout many of these arguments, that the content itself isn't flexible enough. It doesn't allow you to make a mistake without killing you, it's brutal and unforgiving. If you're the kind of person who likes the Souls games, maybe that's just fine. But in trying to appeal to a large audience, which essentially is what all MMOs do, you need to come up with a balance.

Normal Mode was supposed to be that balance, along with providing the gear to get through A1S and A2S while you get your Esoterics and drops from Savage. But the outcry came that it's 'too easy' and that somehow it takes away from the enjoyment people have from running Savage. I will agree that having it be the same bosses takes a little away, but this is also not the first time MMOs have done such a thing, and certainly not the first time we've seen it in XIV. But it seems to me that this outcry is more of a reaction to people getting burnt out in A4S and wanting it all to mean something more than it currently does.

And while you say that this is 'make or break' for the raiders, the main thrust that people who are not the hardcore raiders get out of it is, “You're not really important to this game, it's made for us. Either get to raiding or go back to your rock.” That's the message that's sent whenever someone says, “You don't need this.” or “You don't have a right to see that.” No one wants to be a second-class citizen.

But it all boils down to... whether you raid or not, this is a game. The game is what you make of it, or what you choose not to. If you choose to push the content hard and take it with the seriousness of 'do or die' you will burn out. There's nothing SE or the community at large can do about that. Sometimes you need to take a step back, say to yourself, “Okay, we're not progressing here. Maybe for a while we should go hit something else and see if we can improve ourselves there and then go back.”

The #1 reason that statics breaks... is because most statics don't know when to take a break. It's 'push, push, push' all the time. Something will break, if it's not the raid, then it's the static. And if enough statics break, then the raiding community breaks as well. So please, when you stop and consider why the game isn't fun for you anymore... don't look to the rest of us who, like you, are trying to do the best we can... who pay our subs just like you do (and yes, there is some entitlement to content that comes along with that, same as the raiders have)... and really just want to love the game and enjoy the community.

In conclusion, this game is about -all of us-. Raiders, non-raiders, mid-core, casual, what-have-you. Each part of the community gets something different out of the game, each of us needs something that can cater both to our desires and to the time we are capable to commit to the game. By saying that one group is less or more deserving of deferment only serves to break the community and further push the things that divide us. You're right that the issue isn't about 'special snowflake' arguments, but when a comment such as, “I don't care about your satisfaction with the game, only mine,” is something that can both be said and be looked upon as alright... then the community has far deeper issues than simply a matter of poorly created content.

Thank you for your critical response. It did not take long for this thread to fall into the similar pattern of each other thread here pertaining to raid content or raiders. I think you make a lot of valid points and I did not even consider that there my be some systemic problems with the community itself. Maybe we are slipping into a more vitriolic community as a whole? A Wow forums reborn?

I absolutely agree that we are lacking a balance of content. We have two modes of content currently, the slow lane and drag racing with nothing in between. I am hoping so much that the island content in 3.1 is more even handed with it's challenge. Harder than void ark but much more forgiving than savage. Something that is both compelling and rewarding to the higher end casual non-raiders to the mid core raid crowd.

I've read the original post (well, 85% of it at least). I'm getting the impression that you're drawing comparisons between players completing normal Binding Coil of Bahamut and savage Alexander. Is that correct? If so, may I ask why you're not comparing savage to savage?



This was the exact same situation with savage during the 2.x series, and there was nowhere near the same outcry on the forums then as there is now.

I will admit that I have not tried Alexander savage and I have no intention to. I know I do not have the time nor the desire to aspire to that level of play. With that said, I do have a question that has been burning in my mind since the release of Heavensward.

What has changed that made savage so desirable in 3.0, when you couldn't pay your average player to attempt savage during the 2.x series? Why has savage become the new standard, when it was ignored before?

For me, personally, the lack of a reasonable raid tier that I don't have to have anxiety about. As I highlighted in my post, I have been burning my candle at both ends to keep my static tied together, but it's been wearing on me lately.

Back in ARR, normal mode was a fairly challenging raid. It was achievable by your average joe raider. If you put in your time, you would get a kill before any big nerfs, eventually. That is not happening with alex savage. Our team is on a4s, and I feel like we will get a kill before nerfs, but I don't think my static could survive another raid tier this hard.

Also, we have no content to fall back on. In ARR, the raid was digestible within a few months and that kept us sated and happy for that time. Since we are feeling burnt out on savage, we really have no content to fall back on that would keep us challenged. We either continue with a4s or throw in the towel and go our separate ways since a static is not needed for any other content in the game.

To summarize, there is nothing for raiders to fall back to other than 1-2-3 alt tabbed basic difficulty content. You either make the savage cut, fail and burn yourself out, or just stop raiding.

The people who are taking the time to post that they didn't read the OP are the worst people in this thread.

they are indeed exacerbating the issues our community, the ffxiv community, is dealing with. I know it's a long post, but you don't have to kick a dog when they are down just because you don't want to take the time to read what I have written. Thank you for pointing this out.

Gear, pure and simple. Savage Coil gave no upgrade whatsoever over the gear one could get in Normal SCoB, whereas the gear in Savage Alex is a 20 iLvl boost (210 vs. 190).

This is one of the biggest misconceptions about savage second coil. Yes, gear was part of the problem, maybe even the progenitor of the problems surrounding raiding in general, but I think the absolute biggest issue with second coil savage was finding 8/8 people who strictly wanted to raid for the glory of bragging rights. My static had at least two people who did not want to touch second coil savage because it offered no incentives they were interested in, which was gear. Then we had a 3rd person in our static that was not interested in it because of how much more difficult savage was.

So, our solution was to make a hybrid group with our 2nd raiding static from our FC. Of course, that was a flop since it was hard to schedule savage SCoB raid time on top of the schedule of both statics contending with final coil. We tried several times with different statics from different FC's without any luck.

At the end of the day, it was not a big deal for us, and most raiders, since savage second coil was not part of any primary progression path where as savage alex is the only progression raid with teeth now. Alex normal is duty finder-able and you really don't need a static for it.

So, where do the statics of ARR go? The statics that could get a t13 clear but might not make the cut for an a4s clear? Should they farm alex normal until they disband? This is a big part of the problem. There is no fall back content for raiders that can't contend or don't want to contend with savage.

[Anubis_Nephthys]

Good Lord people. The OP is well thought out. It's length is what allows it to be so precise. Just take 5 mins and read it.
As a response to the OP, I am definitely in a midcore group, possibly on the lower end of the "midcore "spectrum". I think the OP hit the nail on the head about why I raid. I want to shine. I like that small amount of respect that non-hateful non raiders have when they see me decked out. My group is recently on A3, so we haven't grinded it out too much yet, but I don't really fear for the longevity of out group; we may take a while, but I don't forsee us hemorrhaging members.

[T2teddy]

Chiramu, Natashio, SevenHeavens, Waeksyn, and Kore_Hyperion have apparently opted to side with the rude, uninformed and caustic group on the forums. Keep it up folks. I'm sure you don't even realize that losing the raiders will have severe repercussions across the board and may even spell the beginning of the end for this game.

I used to be a raider in a couple of other games until mother nature decreed my right hand shall no longer work well enough to participate in that level of play. So in FFXIV I content myself with most other content but Coils and Alexander Savage. I will attempt Alex normal once I have the ilevel. I know how hard raiders work at seeking perfection so they can beat that boss! It's thrilling, exhausting and often demoralizing all rolled into one.

@Zosia
Thanks for your well presented post. Every point is bang on. I do have one question though. What is this new BiS gear that is coming out in 6 weeks? Something from the 24 man? If so, why is that a bad thing? Seems it might be easier gear to get so one can use it to go back to A3S and A4S with better gear.