The Dark Divinity 3.0

[Shirobi]

Interestingly enough, Odin is an Eikon, something that's beyond even a Primal:

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Lo...er:Gods_of_Eld

So that might explain his uniqueness among primals. As far as I know, Odin is his Sword and will then temper anyone who wields it. From there he slowly saps the environment of Aether for himself.

Eikon is just another word for primals. This was confirmed in the dev chat.

[Rocl]

Eikon is just another word for primals. This was confirmed in the dev chat.

Ah, so we thought until the quest myahele linked where Urianger and Unukalhai, both of which seem to know a lot more about Primals than us (specifically the latter), inform us that Eikon and Primal are similar, but distinct. In the modern day, Garleans use Eikon to refer to Primals, but the Allagans used the word Eikon to refer to a distinct type of being similar to a Primal.

EDIT: There was a second page to this thread I didn't see, sec

The best we can figure out given in-game context and Ferne's post is that all Eikons are primals but not all primals are Eikons (and even that's a stretch I wouldn't want to make yet); there isn't information enough to say much more than "Garleans call all Primals 'eikon'" and there exists some form of distinction between 'primal' and 'eikon' given Unuhalkai's dialogue, though it may be more superficial than some of us think

Unukalhai: I sought you out that I might alert you to the rising threat of the beings known as eikons. ...You are aware of the threat, you say? Ah, but I speak not of the primals, with which you are exceedingly well acquainted. It may interest you to know that the term “eikon” and the beings to which it refers precede the Garlean Empire by eras.

Unukalhai: Ah, yes. The beings the Allagans dubbed eikons. How much we have yet to learn.
Unukalhai: Precisely how they stand apart from primals we have yet to determine. If they were summoned in a similar manner, then who was responsible, and how have they managed to endure for millennia?

[Berethos]

The best we can figure out given in-game context and Ferne's post is that all Eikons are primals but not all primals are Eikons (and even that's a stretch I wouldn't want to make yet); there isn't information enough to say much more than "Garleans call all Primals 'eikon'" and there exists some form of distinction between 'primal' and 'eikon' given Unuhalkai's dialogue, though it may be more superficial than some of us think

I think there's a couple possibilities here, admittedly among others. Either Unukalhai is misleading us (knowingly or unknowingly) with inaccurate information, though I'm not sure what he would stand to gain from that, or there's more to beings summoned by aether than our characters know, and it's to that which the little snake is referring.

Through the course of the MSQ we already learned that the Primals as we've seen them aren't truly creatures/deities that exist on their own but are a created image by those who summon them.

It's possible that the primals that we've faced so far, excluding Odin, are simply a subtype of summoned being, and that there were more powerful types (like Odin, that operated differently in terms of being summoned or sticking around) and that these are the Eikons that the Allagan empire faced, but still fall within the term "summoned beings" as referenced in Fernhalwes' post.

For me, the real question is what has led to Unukalhai making the distinction in the first place.

"Ah, but I speak not of the primals, with which you are exceedingly well acquainted. It may interest you to know that the term “eikon” and the beings to which it refers precede the Garlean Empire by eras. You see, it is the name by which the Allagans called godlike beings, the Dark Divinity Odin among them."

Notice that he doesn't say it's the name used by the Allagans to refer to summoned beings, just simply godlike beings, while also flat out saying he's not talking about the primals we've encountered so far. With Fernhalwes' post for context, it seems he's not 100% in his knowledge of these things, so it has me wondering why he believes they are different enough to be separate beings when according to the lore wrap up transcript they are at least in the same class of beings.

[Februs]

Notice that he doesn't say it's the name used by the Allagans to refer to summoned beings, just simply godlike beings, while also flat out saying he's not talking about the primals we've encountered so far. With Fernhalwes' post for context, it seems he's not 100% in his knowledge of these things, so it has me wondering why he believes they are different enough to be separate beings when according to the lore wrap up transcript they are at least in the same class of beings.

I'm not convinced that they are different at all.

He does explicitly state that there is a difference between Primals and Eikons; however, the little spawn fails to elaborate on any distinction in definition. Consider that "Eikon" simply means: "God like beings." What does "Primal" mean? Also, "God like beings." I don't recall summoning being a part of either definition, but nor is it necessarily absent from either definition. So, really, there is no difference in definition between Eikon or Primal. The only distinction that the spawn makes is that they are god like beings that we have not yet been acquainted with, but that would make sense, given that we have not been to Allag (or at least not seen any summons related to the Allagans except for Bahamut, who, I should point out, was not included in the spawn's list of Primals that we've been acquainted with) or the Garlean Empire.

As far as I can tell, the term "Eikon" is completely interchangeable with "Primal," and that spawn is simply using the term Eikon to refer to primals we have not yet met and are from a different Geographical origin. Basically, it seems to be a geographical distinction only. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. When talking about Primals from Allag or Garlea (is that right? Garland? Garleand? I dunno), use the term Eikon.

That being said, I have noticed one distinct difference common to both "Elder Primals" that is not common among the normal Primals we have faced in the MSQ. The spawn (in case you hadn't picked up on this yet, this is the term I use for children, in this case that little masked freak with a long name) talks about the Primals we know in terms of the elements they relate to. All of the Lesser Primals have one or two elements that they are attuned with. Odin, Bahamut, and Alexander (the only three "Elder Primals" that we are currently aware of) do not. They are non-elemental creatures (which is why I pointed out Ark and Ozma earlier. I was trying to think of Powerful non-elemental Summons). That being said, both Bahamut and Alexander have followers who summoned them. Odin is the only odd Primal out.

[Februs]

The part about this that really gets the gears turning is the notion that Odin's true body is locked away somewhere else, and that only the sword was locked in Urth's Fount. If that's true, then it raises the question as to if Odin is, in fact, a Primal/Eikon at all.

This just makes me fall back to my previous theory that Odin is, quite simply, a Super Powered warrior whom, like the Warriors of Light, got so strong he crossed the threshold of attaining God-like powers (hence the term "Eikon" being applied to him). If that's true, than it's not even certain that the sword Zentetsuken is a Primal. The notes only refer to it as being "cursed" and having a corrupting influence.
Possible spoilers for those who have not completed MSQ.

I can see this feeding into the future lore of the story for a couple of reasons:

The first is the notion of the "Warrior of Darkness" who appears at the end of 3.0 MSQ. The Ascion who introduces this warrior does so because he says the balance must be restored. The Warrior of Light has grown too strong, strong enough to cross into the realm of the gods, and that the balance must be kept. Intro Warrior of Darkness.

From this we gain two facts. The first is that it is possible for a mortal to cross the threshold of "God-Like powers." This is pretty much irrefutable. It comes straight from the Ascion's lips and, lets be honest, we've been whopping so-called "God's" butts all up and down their own castles. The second fact is that mortal warriors crossing the threshold of God-like powers can go in one of two ways, Light or Dark. The constant struggle between the two is actually given physical shape in the Dark Knight lvl 50 quest line. So, I'd say it's safe to assume this is part of the lore.

It is possible, lore wise, that Odin really was no different than us, a Warrior crossing the threshold of attaining "God-Like Power," but, when he got to the cusp of crossing the line, he did so using the Dark side of his soul, as he was corrupted by Zantetsuken's influence.

[Daralii]

The part about this that really gets the gears turning is the notion that Odin's true body is locked away somewhere else, and that only the sword was locked in Urth's Fount. If that's true, then it raises the question as to if Odin is, in fact, a Primal/Eikon at all.

This just makes me fall back to my previous theory that Odin is, quite simply, a Super Powered warrior whom, like the Warriors of Light, got so strong he crossed the threshold of attaining God-like powers (hence the term "Eikon" being applied to him). If that's true, than it's not even certain that the sword Zentetsuken is a Primal. The notes only refer to it as being "cursed" and having a corrupting influence.
Possible spoilers for those who have not completed MSQ.

Wasn't Zantetsuken brought to Eorzea by an au ra?

I have to think it's an eikon, and Odin is a primal summoned by it.

[WyrahFhurrst]

Wasn't Zantetsuken brought to Eorzea by an au ra?

I have to think it's an eikon, and Odin is a primal summoned by it.

As Koji explained, Odin was an Allagan warrior who was heading to Eorzea to save Urth (who was not the Allagan hero we thought she was, at least to the Allagan royalty), and during his travels he found Zantetsuken and it consumed him (more or less). He ended up killing Urth, and was later sealed by Wiyu.

So... He found Zantetsuken somewhere between northern Ilsabard and the Shroud on Aldenard. The sword may simply have a traditionally Doman name and so everyone assumed it was a Raen weapon, but it is stated to be an Eikon, so I doubt it was created by anyone of this world.

[Harz]

As Koji explained, Odin was an Allagan warrior who was heading to Eorzea to save Urth (who was not the Allagan hero we thought she was, at least to the Allagan royalty), and during his travels he found Zantetsuken and it consumed him (more or less). He ended up killing Urth, and was later sealed by Wiyu.

So... He found Zantetsuken somewhere between northern Ilsabard and the Shroud on Aldenard. The sword may simply have a traditionally Doman name and so everyone assumed it was a Raen weapon, but it is stated to be an Eikon, so I doubt it was created by anyone of this world.

Slight correction, he was a 'northern' hero, who came to save Urth from the Allagans.

[Februs]

The sword may simply have a traditionally Doman name and so everyone assumed it was a Raen weapon, but it is stated to be an Eikon, so I doubt it was created by anyone of this world.

That's difficult to say with certainty as well. It has actually not been blatantly stated that Zantetsuken is a Primal. It has been heavily implied that it is (with the Dark Divinity story line), but there has been no official statement that I know of that says it is for sure.The only official word I've seen on the topic has stated that Odin is an Elder Primal... but now it seems he may not be and has a body in hibernation somewhere. Everything has gotten turned around lately. As far as Zantetsuken is concerned, the only notes I've seen on it were in that thread that someone posted above, and even in that the developer states that it is a "cursed sword" that corrupted Odin.

Right now, it is the safest bet to assume that it is a Primal. It certainly answers the most questions if we assume that it is; however, there is still a lot more unexplained questions if we assume that Zantetsuken is the Primal. Namely, why does it seem to have no will of it's own? As soon as it makes itself an Odin copy, the copy takes over. This Primal seems to have no objective or goal of it's own. The Odin copy wants to find Urth, but the Zantetsuken has no voice and does nothing but allow Odin to wield it. Further, who summoned it originally and why does it seem to have an unbreakable bond to Odin? (it never looks like anyone else. That's why I said Spirit bond, cuz' I got no other idea as to why Odin and Zantetsuken are so strongly tied to one another.)

Also, Urth is not dead. Odin is still looking for her... but he also, supposedly, is sealed somewhere. So, there's a lot of ambiguity as to why a copy of Odin would still be seeking Urth, especially if that copy is actually a Primal.

[Daralii]

As Koji explained, Odin was an Allagan warrior who was heading to Eorzea to save Urth (who was not the Allagan hero we thought she was, at least to the Allagan royalty), and during his travels he found Zantetsuken and it consumed him (more or less). He ended up killing Urth, and was later sealed by Wiyu.

So... He found Zantetsuken somewhere between northern Ilsabard and the Shroud on Aldenard. The sword may simply have a traditionally Doman name and so everyone assumed it was a Raen weapon, but it is stated to be an Eikon, so I doubt it was created by anyone of this world.

Thank you. I missed that, I guess.