Tanks, please use strength gear.. :(

[Sapphidia]

If your group doesn't meet the DPS check, Its DPS fault not cause the tank has one to many VIT accessory's equiped.

Got to quote this as this is fundamentally incorrect at the levels we're discussing. Tank DPS outside of Alexander Savage is basically an optional luxury, yes. Good tanks will strive to maximise it for sure but you can get away with full vit turtle tanks in any encounter without a problem.
The issue with tank dps comes where an encounter comes along that says "your group needs a total of 7,000 dps or you hit the enrage and wipe". Most of this burden is on the DPS, but what people were finding is that when all four DPS did the absolute best dps they could possibly do in the gear they had, with max consumables and being all really amazing players... they were still short. So healers and tanks have to fill in the gap. If four DPS can do 1300 dps each and you need 7000 total to kill something, that extra 1800 would have to come from tanks/healers.

Suddenly the difference between a tank that pushes out 450 DPS and a tank that pushes out 900 DPS is literally the make or break factor to a fight. And this -is- what groups have been experiencing in Alexander Savage before they started amassing more and more i200+ gear.

Yes, the DPS have to meet the DPS checks first, but a lot of top end encounters are set up so it's simply NOT POSSIBLE to kill the fight unless tanks also contribute a certain higher-than-average amount of DPS. In such a case, yes, wearing one too many Vitality rings could be the difference between kill or wipe.

[Astral145]

Ok I get that everyone should be doing their job. I guess what I don't quite understand is the mentality where if I am doing my job and only my job then I get an A+. If you can tank effectively and do a little bit of DPS to boot then why is that such a bad thing?

Personally I like to use every o-gcd in-between gcd's as I would if dpsing. At the same time I don't like stance dancing unless the occasion allows me to. Not all healers are on the same page and personally making the healer work that much harder to heal the tank doesn't leave that much wiggle room for when dps's get hit by mechanics. You can be the best stance dancing tank out there but if the healer isn't on the same page you might as well leave your best moves for the dance floor.

This is why I prefer mixing up my jewelry vit/str that way I can put out a little more dps and still maintain a nice buffer for when you get one of those healers that zone out and forget how to heal.

[Alahra]

Why?

It's probably because there's more of a trade-off for a tank to DPS than there is for a MNK to use Mantra or a BLM to use Apoctastasis. Those are off-global abilities that don't generally cost DPS for the person to use. When tanks are pushing for DPS, there's more of a risk involved--it's not always a huge risk, especially if the tank knows what they're doing with cooldowns and the like, but there's a risk. There are similar back and forth discussions on the healer forums with regard to healer DPS that seem to be rooted in the same thing to me.

[karateorangutang]

This is why I prefer mixing up my jewelry vit/str that way I can put out a little more dps and still maintain a nice buffer for when you get one of those healers that zone out and forget how to heal.

I mix up jewelry as well depending on the content. 4 mans is really the only place that i go full STR setup on. Otherwise I try to give my healers a little cushion to deal with. It's the general mentality that surrounds STR accessories that has me at a loss. Most of the people that are defending full VIT setups seem to think that if you don't gear VIT fully then you flop over dead on the first pull. I have yet to run into a healer that is that bad.

It's probably because there's more of a trade-off for a tank to DPS than there is for a MNK to use Mantra or a BLM to use Apoctastasis. Those are off-global abilities that don't generally cost DPS for the person to use. When tanks are pushing for DPS, there's more of a risk involved--it's not always a huge risk, especially if the tank knows what they're doing with cooldowns and the like, but there's a risk. There are similar back and forth discussions on the healer forums with regard to healer DPS that seem to be rooted in the same thing to me.

I can see this I suppose. Like I said in my post though, if your wearing VIT accessories because it makes you feel more comfortable then that is fine. I really don't have a problem with people using VIT setups if that is what makes them feel better. What I don't like is the stance that alot of people are taking where if you don't have a million HP then you aren't viable. I've said it before but STR is an optimization and is by no means necessary for most content. It can be used to great effect even in DF. I run DF too and really don't have an issue. DF is like the monster under your bed, it's really not that bad once you look at it.

[Anova]

Anyway, this is somewhat related, but what's the minimum amount of tank gear you need to survive a dungeon run? Obviously, replacing 5 VIT accessories with STR seems to be the rule of thumb for most from the STR camp.

Is it possible to replace any of the i200 or i210 gear with i180 crafted gear melded with str materia? For example, the belt, feet, hands, and helmet (in that order). Body and leg is probably too much, but maybe some players have tried it anyway. At what point did you find STR gear unsustainable?

On that note, I'd really like to know the baseline for a pure STR tank speed run compared to a pure VIT speed run, and maybe somewhere in between. At what point does the trade-off between VIT and STR make the run slower or faster? Has anyone noticed how much time it takes to complete a run with specific STR and VIT gear?

[Alahra]

DF is like the monster under your bed, it's really not that bad once you look at it.

That probably depends somewhat on Data Center. On Primal at least I regularly experience and hear from other healers about frustrating STR tanks.

However in general, I agree. I think full VIT is pretty wasteful after a certain point, though that point does slide around based on the content in question, individual skill and to a degree, group composition. Personally, I like STR tanks on AST more than I do on my SCH, as the former isn't as competent in AoE DPS as the latter, which means less is given up if I spend more time healing (plus, STR tanks benefit more from an Expanded Balance/Arrow than a VIT one). On SCH I tend to prefer at least a blend of the two (or a good STR tank), since there's more potential for personal DPS there.

On my own tanks, I'm admittedly an average tank and I stick to full VIT for now. I'll get pentamelds when the 180 accessories are readily available (though whether they will be is going to be questionable with how borked crafting progression/material scarcity is right now).

[Eye_Gore]

On that note, I'd really like to know the baseline for a pure STR tank speed run compared to a pure VIT speed run, and maybe somewhere in between. At what point does the trade-off between VIT and STR make the run slower or faster? Has anyone noticed how much time it takes to complete a run with specific STR and VIT gear?

Negligible time difference at best, especially with a PUG DF run, too many variables. Now with a dedicated team of players who play together all the time, pure speculation here but maybe a few minutes at best.

[Maero]

While true tank can help contribute the main duty of it is not to dps.
Just how some healers can dps but not all do or should not be expected to, but it is up to the player to decide.
Myself i have "a" str acc as well and may get more as the current tank gear is sort of not very good, lol
New players first starting out it is probably a better idea that they go vitality or a mix of str and vit just to get the hang of it first

[Ishmachiah]

I stack vitality gear along with the requisite tanking accessories. That's how I roll. You don't have to like it, agree with it or even tolerate it as there is no requirement to run a raid with me.

The other bonus to that? I don't have to run a raid with you.

[rawker]

Yes?





........

I see what you did there.

Anyways,

I was once a fan of full fending right side on my PLD. Then I tried swapping one str accessory and then another. I didn't realize that I was already running 4 str accs with all my bonus stats at str. So I decided, I might as well go full STR. Tanking 4 mans is already trivial considering how much healers can heal nowadays. Going for 8-man, I just swap to 3 slaying, 2 fending, with my points in VIT for a good balance between tankiness and threat generation.