Hair contest: petitioning

[Nyalia]

I would like to respectfully disagree with the OP. While it might be nice for the styles to be more diverse, I feel that the contest clearly stated that SE would pick out finalists that they liked most (and felt they could implement). Of course this biases the contest toward Japanese styles - the people choosing their favorites are Japanese, after all. Yes, there are more Japanese finalists than other regions, because Japanese entrants are more likely to enter styles that are more popular to the Japanese developers choosing the finalists. I also don't get the argument that a style is "plagiarized" if an character from a game or show has something similar. There's only so much you can do with hair. A lot of it has been done by someone somewhere. The one people were claiming was Rudy's from Log Horizon, I've seen on tons of characters in tons of shows. It's a minor variant of a common style, and it's not even identical to Rudy's. (The Quintis style is different - that's totally unoriginal.)

When the contest rules said the entries had to be an original work, I read that as the images must be an original work. You can't screencap an anime or take a screenshot from another game, or submit a photo of a celebrity or something from an advertisement (which was done, I know, but they did disqualify that one). I didn't think they were saying that the style had to be a unique hairstyle never seen before.

And yes, I would have liked more styles that are styles I personally like and would personally use. My metric for what hair (or clothing) I'd put on a character is "would I wear this myself in public?" and very few of the hairstyles chosen are ways I would wear my own hair. But, that's just the way it is. You can't please everyone, and the developers weren't trying to. They were just picking the entries they liked the most. If I had been the one choosing entries based on what I liked, people would be complaining about the lack of short hairstyles :P


I do have a complaint about the contest though - my favorite style of the selections (female #16) wasn't at the very bottom. While most contests like this favor the top entries, this one favors the lower ones. Of the two that currently have over 5,000 likes, the one I like better is higher on the list than the other, so it'll have more disqualified votes. I dislike that they used the like system, but only accept the last like. If they're going to use the system, I feel they should use it the way it is - let people vote for multiple entries, accepting all likes as votes. Done this way, I'm sure there are tons of likes for later entries that are not the voter's favorite because they missed the rule (which I did until I saw the message on the dev tracker) and just liked every style they liked. The first time I voted, my latest like was for the entry I liked the least out of the eight I voted for, because I was on the fence about it the longest.

Actually, thinking about it, my vote is likely still cast for that one I liked 8th most, because when I went back and unliked all but my favorite, I never unliked and re-liked my favorite. My last like was for that other entry, even though it isn't marked as liked anymore for me. I better go fix that!

[KasKatta]

...

I do not disagree with what you're saying, and I have to thank you for showing a good example of how a person should show their disagreement rather than the others have done earlier.

I'm sure we were all aware that SE was picking the selections based on what they liked, that was never in question. But after seeing the results and as you pointed out, the rather slanted and one-sided selections to pick from... I personally just feel misled. You have to look at the possible numbers. If SE received 1000 entries (which I'm quite sure they did at bare minimum), selecting 25 is representing less than 1% of entries, and when you include all the people who did not enter, that 25 selected represents even less of the community. Therefore our biggest complaint is the number of entries in the finals in the first place. And we're asking for maybe some consideration if they ever decide to do a design contest again, whether its hair or something else, to consider giving us the chance to be more active in the voting process and showing more entries. I don't think that idea is too complicated. This contest may be too late to change, but there should be room for improvement in the future.

Also not disagreeing with the idea of the SE character hairstyles making it in, but a lot of us felt it should have been showcased in a separate category away from "original" designs. Or have been implemented separately all together. The contest again, was supposed to have us create original designs, and no matter how you swing it, basing off a SE character isn't all that original. That lessened the number again of possible original entries even further (let alone the one that was removed completely taking up a spot).

If SE let the community do a lot of this weeding out for them, I think honestly more of us would feel better represented. Even if they still picked the finalist pool (just hopefully more than 1%) we still have the chance for more variety. And I agree with you as well with how the voting system for this contest needs a lot of work. A good number of people are still confused about the last "like" and all that. So again, proves a point contests like this should be improved in the future.

[Oblitae]

"but what if i'm not represented in two hairstyles that will be added to a game"

[Reinha]

"but what if i'm not represented in two hairstyles that will be added to a game"

Oh look, another one.



On another note,

Anyways, I think it's more like some kind of debate tool that white knights, SJWs, Fedora-wearing internet heroes, and malnourished 400lb foreveralone neckbeards use to dismantle an argument they don't personally agree with. It's like, "Since I can't win with a well-constructed argument, I'll win by just throwing some fallacy terms at it to make it sound wrong/false, while simultaneously implying/making myself look like an authority on internet debates - even though I'm not qualified. Yay!...I'm such an internet tough guy!"

If that doesn't work, or is met with a counter, then it will usually devolve into a "...sheep," or "he mad" shit post, or a "stop liking what I don't like" whine. When these kind of posts appear, I just ignore them. They are irksome and tiresome. They're not qualified to speak against anything, and they're not saying anything either. They are simply shit posts. They're just trying to look important. I think the term "narcissist" comes to mind.

Wow, you are actually defending the use of fallacies and implying that calling out fallacies is a fallacy... Excuse me a moment my head is spinning.

Ok I'm good now. I bolded some things I'd like to comment. A post riddled with fallacies is not a well constructed argument. Calling out fallacies is calling out a badly constructed argument. So when you next see the word "fallacy" being used, you should see for yourself here. Anyone is qualified to try and have a clean debate or discussion, and that entails weeding out poorly constructed or invalid arguments like those on the list.

[Nyalia]

~

Apologies - I wasn't very specific about what I disagreed with. I'm not saying that the contest couldn't/shouldn't have been done better. A lot of the suggestions in this thread for improvements, I totally agree with. What I was disagreeing with was the assertion that the lack of variety was a problem, and that the hairstyles weren't sufficiently unique. Yes, there was a lack of variety to an extent, and yes, I'd rather there be more variety than there was, but I don't see it as a problem, possibly because it's what I was expecting in the first place. I could see them looking at a style and going, "I really like that general style (side ponytail, bun, etc), and would like to have a style like that in game at some point, if not now, later. Let's throw in some variants so we can see what specific form of that style people want the most." I don't see that as bad. They're looking for feedback, but within specific parameters. Unlike most other contests here, this contest isn't about choosing the most popular or best presented hairstyle, it's about choosing the most popular/best presented hairstyle from a small subset that a small group of people chose.

Yes, more diversity is good. Yes, more variety is great. Yes, more styles to choose from would be wonderful. But, I don't see the lack of any of these things as a sign of a failed contest, or even a flawed contest.

All that said, I'd like to be clear on another matter - I totally agree with you on the Quintis hairstyle. I feel like that shouldn't have made it in. That doesn't invalidate what I said above. I also don't feel like the two clear mistakes (the quintis style and the plagiarized one) make the whole contest a flop.

[Oblitae]

Oh look, another one.

Except, that's the short hand of what OP said. Crying over not being properly represented.

This would be a petition stating the general upset at the lack of representation of what we, as a community, wanted in style choices.

The summary of both sides of this argument were finished about 2 pages in. After that, you're all just re-phrasing the same opinion circlejerking to see who's the best at forming sentences in a convincing tone.

Don't get me wrong, it's good this thread exists because at the off chance somebody important does read this, perhaps then in the future what has been said here might be taken into consideration. However; 26 pages of "i disagree because my opinions make more logical sense than yours so suck it" is ridiculous.

[Reinha]

Except, that's the short hand of what OP said. Crying over not being properly represented.

"but what if i'm not represented in two hairstyles that will be added to a game"

That's what you said. The OP is talking about being represented in the 25 voting options that the devs picked. If you are able to see the difference between those statements, would you mind responding to the actual point of this thread? Here are some examples. Do you feel the voting options are diverse? Are there duplicate styles and if yes, could/should they have been cut down to give room for different styles? Are there any commonly used (irl) hairstyles missing from the options? Is a pool of 25 options large enough to give enough variation?

For me, the answers would be no, yes, yes, yes and no.

[Oblitae]

Two hairstyles are going to be added, OP will not like them and OP will not wear them. They'll be bothered for a month at max that their one chance to be represented in a game has been ruined. This is the subtext.

I don't feel like the voting options are diverse, no. I'm someone who joined the contest having drawn a style with dreadlocks and at first glance I was needless to say a little frustrated with what the judges picked. I'm fully aware that what's been picked conforms to 1 genre, but that isn't surprising with this "being a Japanese game". - As many people have stated. 25 options isn't large enough to give variation but anymore than that and you start losing a lot of people's interest. To make some assumptions as many people are doing in this thread, if people cannot sit through a 10 minute YouTube video they won't scroll for days picking out hairstyles. Which thus brings in to question the format of the voting. It sucks. We all know it sucks. "Only the last like counts" etc. I also love how the descriptions of the hairstyles were not actually included in the end but then again they would have to translate it and that means the already late voting period could have been even later.

Leading back to the point about representation..

I had designed hairstyles I thought would appeal not to myself but to others who i know wanted something different from what we already had. A lot of people i'm sure did the same. Thinking about it I wish this was the thought process the judges has taken when picking and choosing. But as that isn't the case, there is something else people can do, y'know? Just find another way to be represented in a game.

[KasKatta]

...

I believe you have very valid points. I'll also go back to something I said earlier where I mentioned a petition would have questionable results, because the probability that this thread will be noticed by someone who can do anything about the issues being addressed in it is very slim. However, that does not mean the issues and points made in this thread should not have been voiced at all. There really is nothing we can do at this point other than state what we feel, what we feel the next contest could do better, yadda yadda with the hope someone at SE notices.

Once things get implemented in game, you're right, a good number of us are going to ignore the chosen hair if it doesn't suit our tastes and move on. We can only hope the next time we have the chance to do this it doesn't end up the same. Which leads back to the original intent of the OP and this thread, however skewed and along the many directions it took to get here.

[Noxifer]

Two hairstyles are going to be added, OP will not like them and OP will not wear them. They'll be bothered for a month at max that their one chance to be represented in a game has been ruined. This is the subtext.

That is probably true for a lot of us players, and even if the selection was more diverse, it would still most likely be true for a lot of us players.

But that's not really the point of the thread. The point of the thread is, we have people who like every letter in the alphabet, but everyone doesn't like all the letters, of course. Now let's select the most popular letter in the alphabet. You're allowed to vote on A, A, A, B, B, C, D, A, B, E, B, A, C, F. Which is your favourite letter? Oh, you're unhappy that C won? Well, even if we'd been allowed to vote on every letter, you'd still have been disappointed if your favourite letter didn't win. Well, maybe C hadn't won if all the people liking a non-represented letter best had been allowed to vote on that letter, and at least my favourite letter would have had a chance to win =D

It's not the winning entry (which hasn't been decided yet) we're upset with. It's not that "my entry should have been in the finals, because mine is obviously better". It's not that "my particular kind of favourite hairstyle isn't represented". And it's certainly not an attempt at putting down those artists lucky enough to get their entry into the finals, even though it might seem that way sometimes.

It's that with such a narrow selection (on the female side: several side-tails, the majority of hairstyles over-all being very 'cutesy', almost all of them straight-haired, almost all of them with bangs, to give a few examples), the number of people who don't have their favoured type of hairstyle represented is a lot larger than if the selection was more varied. This means that more people will either be choosing not to vote at all, or will be choosing to vote on the 'least unattractive choice'.


I'm fairly sure that most of us who think this are aware that nothing will be changed in this contest. But we can always strive to persuade SE to do things differently the next time they decide to hold a contest like this, whether it's to design a hairstyle or a garment or a barding or something else. For example doing it tournament style. Or by having a couple of sub-categories as a 'semi-final' stage (with categories such as 'short hair', 'tails/braids', 'other updos' or other types of dividing the entries by 'approximate look'), and the top X entries from each category making it to the finals -- or even the top X entries if you look at all the categories together (meaning if semi-final group A has five hairstyles that all have a higher number of votes than any hairstyle at all from the other categories, then we'd have five finalists from group A).
That way, SE would still have the option to set aside hairstyles they either feel wouldn't be possible to implement or already have vague plans to implement already -- or whatever other reason they may have -- and we as a community would be able to not only decide from a larger pool of entries, but also help ensure that the winning entry is one that the majority actually loves insteads of sees as the 'lesser evil'.

(I'm sorry if my attempts at explaining are confusing x_x I'm not really good at explaining things.)