Why are DPS so upset about tanks coming close to their DPS?

[Ladon]

They should be upset because tanks getting within 25% of a DPS class breaks the established trinity. We are getting to the point that you can bring a group of Warriors and some healers and meet every DPS check in CURRENT CONTENT with current gear. That is a huge problem for the overall health of a game that relies so heavily on the trinity.

Consider the fallout of two other scenarios:

Heavensward gave every DD mitigation and hate generation abilities that perform within 25% of the tank classes. You could easily make up that 25% difference with gear, hit the minimum mitigation/HP requirements in fights and then just ditch tanks completely and bring 6 DDs and 2 healers to everything.

OR

They could have given all the DDs self heals and party heals that are withing 25% of the potency and HPS of the healer classes. Same deal, it would be easy enough to overgear to overcome that 25% difference and overcome the healing requirements of all fights and just completely ditch all the pure healers in the game.

That is the real situation that is coming down the line here very soon where fully functional party compositions are going to start appearing without a single DPS class in them as ilevels continue to climb. And then we have a completely broken game on our hands that is just going to power creep to ridiculous levels to try and fix because people are so fearful of nerfs to actually properly fix the game.

Simply put, if your functional role disparity can be overcome by currently obtainable gear in a trinity system, your game is broken.

[Sylve]

TBH I haven't seen this complaint from DPSes.
The only complaints about DPS focus on tanks I've heard comes from healers, who have to deal with inexperienced tanks forgetting to do Job 1 (LIVE) before they do Job 2.

It sure was fun leveling my AST up with Tanks who heard that "Tanks only wear STR accessories always".

I'll not forget the many dungeons i did with Tanks that wouldn't use their Tanking stances because "MAH DEEPS", nevermind that they have around the same HP as a DRG and are about as easy to keep alive.

And that one Warrior in Fractal on his self proclaimed virgin tank run on the final boss swapping to Deliverance with 2 stacks of Vulnerability and a huge 12k health pool.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind tanks who wear full STR, most of the time. The ones that do it right are the ones who properly use mitigation cooldowns, self heals and generally don't do dumb things.
Its the ones that heard about full STR Tanking being the only acceptable way to tank now and not even bother trying to use defensive abilities. When they inevitably drain my MP dry or die to a crit chain, it's me who gets blamed for not being a good enough Healer.

Maybe I'm just old fashioned, But on my Warrior main, i enjoy wearing full VIT for my EXDRs.
Nothing quite so satisfying as pulling a large pack with 25k~ hp and the Healer doesn't even need to leave Cleric Stance.

So uhh, On topic. I don't think I've ever seen any ingame complaints about Tank dps.

-

So .. Do you have proof to back up your claims? Pretty sure groups aren't steamrolling Alex Savage with 6x WAR and 2 Healers.

[Ladon]

So .. Do you have proof to back up your claims? Pretty sure groups aren't steamrolling Alex Savage with 6x WAR and 2 Healers.

There is absolutely no reason they can't. The math doesn't lie and mathematically 6 geared Warriors will output enough raid DPS to beat Savage enrage timers.

I'm sure the only major thing stopping this from happening at this point is the logistics of getting 6 Warriors together that don't mind screwing the rest of their statics.

[SpookyGhost]

If you want to test it you can always just get a group who wants to try it out and do it after you've all already cleared A1S/A2S/whatever you want to try it on for the week.

A1S and A2S are the most feasible I think, A3S would be... highly questionable.

[Ladon]

Indeed. You might hit the enrage on A3S...maybe not if increased survivability of the Warriors allows both healers to push out more damage but you only need what, 5800-6000 raid DPS to beat the A3S enrage? I mean you can get pretty creative here, like creating a provoke chain so that generally Warriors with berserk down are currently tanking which would up the overall damage average of every Warrior.


It's very likely going to a thing with a full i210 group though which is still a problem because there is no possible way any of these fights are going to be remotely possible without bringing tanks or healers.

[Trixxy]

Bad DPS mains complaining about Good Tank mains.
More at 11.

[spelley]

I am thrilled when a tank is putting out almost-DPS levels of damage. It means whatever I'm doing just became a hell of a lot easier/quicker in general.

[Dement]

They should be upset because tanks getting within 25% of a DPS class breaks the established trinity. We are getting to the point that you can bring a group of Warriors and some healers and meet every DPS check in CURRENT CONTENT with current gear. That is a huge problem for the overall health of a game that relies so heavily on the trinity.

Consider the fallout of two other scenarios:

Heavensward gave every DD mitigation and hate generation abilities that perform within 25% of the tank classes. You could easily make up that 25% difference with gear, hit the minimum mitigation/HP requirements in fights and then just ditch tanks completely and bring 6 DDs and 2 healers to everything.

OR

They could have given all the DDs self heals and party heals that are withing 25% of the potency and HPS of the healer classes. Same deal, it would be easy enough to overgear to overcome that 25% difference and overcome the healing requirements of all fights and just completely ditch all the pure healers in the game.

That is the real situation that is coming down the line here very soon where fully functional party compositions are going to start appearing without a single DPS class in them as ilevels continue to climb. And then we have a completely broken game on our hands that is just going to power creep to ridiculous levels to try and fix because people are so fearful of nerfs to actually properly fix the game.

Simply put, if your functional role disparity can be overcome by currently obtainable gear in a trinity system, your game is broken.

I, personally, think that you're blowing this pretty far out of proportion. Can 6 WARs and 2 Heals possibly down some harder content? Sure... there were 6/7 WAR, 2/1 Healer T13 clears for fun. Is anyone likely going to do it for anything more than giggles? I highly doubt it. Tanks being able to hit harder than a wet noodle will never lead to the full blown dropping of all DPS classes. Ever.

In the meta where DPS is king and quicker fights are always strived towards, there is never going to be a mass dropping of all DPS roles in favor of tanks that do less damage. On the other hand, if DPS were given the ability to tank almost as well as the tanks, there would indeed be a mass dropping of tanks in favor of filling those spots with DPS. The amount of damage you do trumps survivability when all you have to do is be just good enough to stay alive.

[Dement]

I am thrilled when a tank is putting out almost-DPS levels of damage. It means whatever I'm doing just became a hell of a lot easier/quicker in general.

This is a good way to think of it. I don't understand why DPS feel so incredibly threatened when it does benefit them as well. The only time tank damage is a hinderance to anybody is as the previous examples mentioned... when new tanks forget their first, and most important, job is to hold aggro and live through it and maxing DPS numbers is a secondary objective.

[Erit]

In the meta where DPS is king and quicker fights are always strived towards, there is never going to be a mass dropping of all DPS roles in favor of tanks that do less damage. On the other hand, if DPS were given the ability to tank almost as well as the tanks, there would indeed be a mass dropping of tanks in favor of filling those spots with DPS. The amount of damage you do trumps survivability when all you have to do is be just good enough to stay alive.

You'll frequently find people who try the mass-dropping of tanks in DF anyway. I did a roulette a while back that landed me in Tam-tara, and this sproutling LNC was pulling everything ahead of me and told me to my face that tanks were filler classes in all content. At least two DPS jobs currently have methods to semi-viably tank in everything except cutting-edge raiding. Where was that post someone made about running EXDR with a scholar, three summoners and a potato-egi?

Because killing things as quickly as mathemagically possible is the gold-star standard in the meta as it stands, if it weren't for the fact that certain tankbusters and trash packs would chunk a DPS four times over in a single swing I doubt you'd see any tank slots in PF or static recruitment. As gear levels rise, a portion of the... let's call them "misinformed" masses will come to accept it as fact that tanks are "worthless". To say that such would become the new meta would be hyperbolic at best, but that doesn't change the fact that some people will actually believe it.