(3.1) Balancing Rental Airships vs Player Crafted Airships

[Yeldir]

What they really shouldn't do is lock other players out of content that is REPLACING a third expert dungeon in patch 3.1, just because there is a housing shortage that SE hasn't properly addressed.

I agree with this, of course. Even said so in my original post.

No, you're not thinking in the long-term. You're acting like the current set of crafting content is it, completely ignoring that subsequent patches will add onto it and create new demand. Is there a brick wall in the future for crafting? Sure, just like there was in 2.0 as well. Thing is, new patches gave crafters a new wall to hit. That's not even considering things like the Relic quest, which added most of the demand for Materia anyway... Wouldn't be too surprised to see SE add another "Sell your soul for Materia" stage in the coming patches...

Then, of course, is the fact that you're ignoring the other allure Airship Voyages present; A source for free Grade 3 Actions.

Having crafted in 1.0, and again in 2.0, and again in 3.0, I can tell you that the current wall is nothing like what was present at any stage of the game, and reflects a specific change in design philosophy. Let me break it down for you:

In 1.0, almost everything was crafted. The economy was player driven, often to impractical extremes. It drove a huge number of players from the game.

In 2.0, as you well know, crafted gear for PVE progression was rotated in, in a controlled manner. There was usually a tier of crafted gear from a few classes at a time that was viable (and occasionally optimal) to wear in the cutting edge raids. I made a great deal of gil at the launch of ARR on astral rings and the like - properly melded, these were of tremendous use in pushing the first coil.

3.0 is where things take an abrupt and unprecedented plunge. There was no viable crafted gear for PVE progression at launch, and the "crafting patch" has introduced a limited selection of ilvl 180 gear with a ton of limitations that you will almost never see on another player, not only for reasons of extreme scarcity due to the scrip system we all know and loathe, but because of the "death" of materia. Grade 5 materia cannot be gotten in quantities necessary for crafted i180 to provide an alternative to i190 and i200 stuff. They don't want Grade 5 materia accessible to players until after its window of usefulness in cutting edge raid content has passed.

To top it off, SE specifically excluded 180 combat jewelry because they knew it would be flexible enough to be useful in raids.

If all of that doesn't clue you in on the change in design philosophy, SE has flat out stated that they were displeased with the role crafted equipment played in accelerating content clearing in ARR. If you find that unbelievable, I can find the statement for you, with a bit of digging.

Finally, it takes three days to spin up a Tier III FC buff. Three days for twenty-four hours. These won't be a huge benefit unless they allow us to install three aetherial wheel tables in our homes. And even then, consider how many FC credits we'll be burning on fuel to reach the far islands necessary to produce these buffs. It's 10+ units of fuel on these trips. I'd be surprised if it wasn't a net loss in terms of credits.

[Burne]

Is it possible to rent airships solo or is that planned for 3.1?

[Yeldir]

There's personal airships, which are a flying mount you get for free, now, but they can't be used for the new zone they're introducing in 3.1, which requires either FC crafted airships to fly around in, or rented ones specifically for this region.

[Burne]

Ahh ok I wasn't sure lol. I was about to run around Ishgard to look for NPC to start solo quest. My FC has ship crafting just havent gotten into much. So you're saying next patch I can use one of my personal flying mounts to explore

[Nalien]

To top it off, SE specifically excluded 180 combat jewelry because they knew it would be flexible enough to be useful in raids.

Isn't this exactly what they've been doing with crafted accessories for a while now? Heck, I just checked 2.4 and 2.5 to be sure, it is. Patch 2.4 added Wootz/etc. gear as crafted i110. Patch 2.5 added the Platinum series of i110 accessories... Seem to remember a similar deal with 2.2 and 2.3... This really is nothing new...

Rarity of materials and utility of gear are really the only issues I see with crafting at this point, though I really do not think that is going to be enough to create some "crafting armageddon", and certainly not if they continue to make adjustments to it. The only way this would have a negative impact on Airships is if everyone just stops caring about gathering/crafting, in which case SE would absolutely have to make serious adjustments, otherwise they'd be throwing resources to develop a system everyone nobody uses.

What I see right now though, is the same staggered recipe release we've always had, which means every patch should be bringing in new demand. I see Blue/Red Scrips as a carbon copy of Law/Esoterics, which makes me think 3.2 will be phasing out Blue Scrips and removing the cap on Red. At which point I imagine all that hard melded gathering/crafting AF2 might get replaced for another Forager's/Artisan's set, which will again need melding. If people have given up on crafting by that point, we'd have a problem, but considering all of my Airships have already paid for themselves and then some, I'm not sure what the point of all this is... I'll still be able to sell Materia the same way I always have been able to... Perhaps I wont be bringing in millions, but everything my Airships bring in has simply be gravy for a while now. An issue perhaps for newer FCs, but for those of us who've already abused the heck out of all these new items... It's a laughable complaint at best, more so when this entire argument is built off "maybes". They literally just need to give us Sphere Scrolls II, and the concept of Materia becoming valueless just becomes completely vapid, as does "My Airship which has already made me 10m" along with it.

Also, regarding rarity of materials... It's perhaps worth remembering exactly what they've spoken of for rewards for these upcoming islands... I don't think they've ever mentioned tomestones or gear, the only thing I've seen is "Once you've cleared out the enemies, gathers can come along to harvest nodes", perhaps its nothing, perhaps its something. I expect a new source of Darksteel/etc., but the new stuff would certainly be a welcome addition.

Finally, it takes three days to spin up a Tier III FC buff. Three days for twenty-four hours. These won't be a huge benefit unless they allow us to install three aetherial wheel tables in our homes. And even then, consider how many FC credits we'll be burning on fuel to reach the far islands necessary to produce these buffs.

Grade 3 Actions can only be acquired using the Aetherial Wheel. This isn't like the Grade 1 or 2 Actions, where you can reasonably just spend FC Credits to get them instantly, if you want Grade 3 Actions (and why wouldn't you?) you're going to have to spin them on the Aetherial Wheel and either use materials from your Voyages, or buy the materials from another FC, who'll presumably be very happy to continue to be getting even more profit out of their Airships.

It's 10+ units of fuel on these trips. I'd be surprised if it wasn't a net loss in terms of credits.

At 100 Credits per? No. Not by a long shot. Grade 1~2 Actions currently cost me 1,000~6,000 Credits, mostly 3,000 and 6,000. I'd imagine Grade 3 Actions would cost 9,000 Credits if they get added in such a way. Just looking at what it would take me to farm the right Clusters for Grade 3 Actions, the Credits spent of fuel should be less than buying a Grade 1 Heat of Battle...

[Yumi_umi]

2 months later
Where is my dusk leather market!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There's only 2 on the mb gg
From my knowledge ppl r gettin lazy so its pretty much a small market if ur server isn't filled with airship goers.
Cuz i for one would love to buy 100x dusk leathers to craft gear for my fc.

[Yeldir]

Isn't this exactly what they've been doing with crafted accessories for a while now? Heck, I just checked 2.4 and 2.5 to be sure, it is. Patch 2.4 added Wootz/etc. gear as crafted i110. Patch 2.5 added the Platinum series of i110 accessories... Seem to remember a similar deal with 2.2 and 2.3... This really is nothing new...

What? It is new. The launch of ARR had raid viable crafts. And then came the crafting patches, which introduced more. And then there'd be one or two pve patches, and then another crafting patch, which would be viable for its time. Now we've got no raid viable gear at launch, and a crafting patch which introduced no raid viable gear. How do you not see the change in design philosophy? I feel like I'm pointing up at the sun, and you're stating up, squinting, and saying "hmn, nope." And then there's SE flat out stating they were dissatisfied with the old system and people using crafted gear to progress.

I see Blue/Red Scrips as a carbon copy of Law/Esoterics

Except crafters could purchase as many of tomestone materials as they could afford, in many cases allowing them to produce as many items as they wanted. Now, there's a hard cap, and one that forces crafters to choose between improving their gear or selling for profit. That's also totally new.

Grade 3 Actions can only be acquired using the Aetherial Wheel. This isn't like the Grade 1 or 2 Actions, where you can reasonably just spend FC Credits to get them instantly, if you want Grade 3 Actions (and why wouldn't you?) you're going to have to spin them on the Aetherial Wheel and either use materials from your Voyages, or buy the materials from another FC, who'll presumably be very happy to continue to be getting even more profit out of their Airships.

I already talked about this the post you're responding to, which makes me think you're not adequately reading what I'm writing.

At 100 Credits per? No. Not by a long shot. Grade 1~2 Actions currently cost me 1,000~6,000 Credits, mostly 3,000 and 6,000. I'd imagine Grade 3 Actions would cost 9,000 Credits if they get added in such a way. Just looking at what it would take me to farm the right Clusters for Grade 3 Actions, the Credits spent of fuel should be less than buying a Grade 1 Heat of Battle...

You might be right about this one, now that I think about it. It could be a lot closer than I first estimated, depending on how frequently these deep clusters drop. Considering you've spent 200,000+ free company credits on your airship by the time you've got enough airships with the 50ish rank you need to farm these, though, and it'll be a long, long time before you're out of the red in terms of FC credits.

[Nalien]

What? It is new.

No, it isn't. They have been releasing left hand gear alongside a new raid, and right hand (accessories) gear the next patch since 2.2. Go check the patch notes... 2.2 did not have i90 accessories, 2.3 did. 2.4 did not have i110 accessories, 2.5 did... 3.0 not having i180 accessories, them instead coming in 3.1 (probably) is exactly what they've been doing for over a year... That is not a new development...

Now we've got no raid viable gear at launch

Is that really the issue? We didn't have a raid when Heavensward launched... We had Law gear (i170) and that was it, if we'd have crafted i180 at the time, that would have been the best gear by default (considering how hated Hunts are by most), instead they released crafted i180 around the same time as the serious raid content... I agree the scarcity of materials is an issue, but when it comes to releasing crafted stuff they've done nothing differently here... We've been getting main gear and accessories a patch a part since 2.2... We've been getting crafted gear equal to uncapped tomestones for a while too...

The only issue is how difficult it is to make the stuff due to the scarcity of materials/materia, I wasn't arguing that though, I was specifically pointing out that accessories being a patch behind is nothing new...

I already talked about this the post you're responding to, which makes me think you're not adequately reading what I'm writing.

The wheel taking three days to spin really isn't an issue... You can either burn 12,000 Credits a day on Actions (assuming you're using 2 Grade 2 Actions every day, if you're not using Actions every day, then the time taken to spin one out shouldn't matter at all), or you can use the Aetherial Wheel. Over the course of three days, your options are;

1. Spend 36,000 Credits on 6 Grade 2 Actions.
2. Spend 24,000 Credits on 4 Grade 2 Actions, produce 1 Grade 2 Action and 1 Grade 3 Action off the wheel.
3. Spend 18,000 Credits on 3 Grade 2 Actions, produce 1 Grade 1 Action, 1 Grade 2 Action, and 1 Grade 3 Action off the wheel.

With the wheel, you can effectively halve you Credits cost on Actions for no cost to potency (since the cost of using a Grade 1 Action will be offset by the Grade 3). Those 200k+ Credits you've spent would be made up faster than you'd think, when you're saving 18,000 Credits/3 days.

That's a serious benefit IMO, and it's on top of the Gil I'm raking in which I'm not convinced will suddenly become worthless because SE decided crafting materials should be absurdly rare. If patch 3.0 goes on for another year, then I'd be worried, but 3.1 is on the way, then after that we'll have 3.2. There are plenty of chances for them to create new demand for the materia my Airships are churning out. I'd perhaps be worried if Sphere Scrolls were never a thing, but they were.

Except crafters could purchase as many of tomestone materials as they could afford, in many cases allowing them to produce as many items as they wanted. Now, there's a hard cap, and one that forces crafters to choose between improving their gear or selling for profit. That's also totally new..

Never said it wasn't new. My point was that it mirrors tomestones. Whereas in ARR we had i55 sets and then Artisans, I suspect they'll be replacing the current crafting sets in 3.2 (same time Esoterics will go uncapped and we'll get a new set), which gives us more potential for a boost in demand for Materia. Whereas in ARR we only really had two points where crafting Materia got a large boost in demand, here we might have three.

[RiceisNice]

...

It's not so much the lack of viable raid gear, it's the lack of meaningful combat gear. The way it is right now, the Ilvl180 combat gear fails at being "catch up" gear because it uses weekly locked currency, and the alternative is law tomestones (which go as high as 190). It fails for alternative gear because secondary stats (except accuracy, which is incredibly saturated for some classes antyway) are worth much much less than primary stats this time around. It even fails at glamour because it's the exact same model and color pattern as the ilvl 160 version. There's absolutely no reason to craft 2 star battle gear.

[Yeldir]

No, it isn't. They have been releasing left hand gear alongside a new raid, and right hand (accessories) gear the next patch since 2.2. Go check the patch notes... 2.2 did not have i90 accessories, 2.3 did. 2.4 did not have i110 accessories, 2.5 did... 3.0 not having i180 accessories, them instead coming in 3.1 (probably) is exactly what they've been doing for over a year... That is not a new development...

Item level isn't everything. Viability of crafted gear also depends on materia - in many cases (particularly accessories) you could make a piece of lower item level crafted gear equal to or even marginally superior to dropped gear via melding. A lot of early coil raiders did just this. This functionality and flexibility is gone, by design. The materia isn't there.

The wheel taking three days to spin really isn't an issue... You can either burn 12,000 Credits a day on Actions (assuming you're using 2 Grade 2 Actions every day, if you're not using Actions every day, then the time taken to spin one out shouldn't matter at all), or you can use the Aetherial Wheel. Over the course of three days, your options are;

1. Spend 36,000 Credits on 6 Grade 2 Actions.
2. Spend 24,000 Credits on 4 Grade 2 Actions, produce 1 Grade 2 Action and 1 Grade 3 Action off the wheel.
3. Spend 18,000 Credits on 3 Grade 2 Actions, produce 1 Grade 1 Action, 1 Grade 2 Action, and 1 Grade 3 Action off the wheel.

With the wheel, you can effectively halve you Credits cost on Actions for no cost to potency (since the cost of using a Grade 1 Action will be offset by the Grade 3). Those 200k+ Credits you've spent would be made up faster than you'd think, when you're saving 18,000 Credits/3 days.

You've got me convinced, here. Well stated.

That's a serious benefit IMO, and it's on top of the Gil I'm raking in which I'm not convinced will suddenly become worthless because SE decided crafting materials should be absurdly rare. If patch 3.0 goes on for another year, then I'd be worried, but 3.1 is on the way, then after that we'll have 3.2. There are plenty of chances for them to create new demand for the materia my Airships are churning out. I'd perhaps be worried if Sphere Scrolls were never a thing, but they were.

... My point was that it mirrors tomestones. Whereas in ARR we had i55 sets and then Artisans, I suspect they'll be replacing the current crafting sets in 3.2 (same time Esoterics will go uncapped and we'll get a new set), which gives us more potential for a boost in demand for Materia. Whereas in ARR we only really had two points where crafting Materia got a large boost in demand, here we might have three.

Yeah, it mirrors them. Some kind of twisted evil funhouse mirror, that shows us getting our throats slashed by a clown.

You're betting the way things are can't possibly be the game from now on, in spite of SE stating, specifically, that they want crafted gear to be so bad it can never be used in any fresh raids. You're betting they'll change their minds, huh?

Let me tell you what I was thinking when crafted airships were announced: I was hoping for the airships myself and a couple of my officers worked so hard on to be something that excited the entire free company. I wanted to benefit them in a meaningful way, beyond throwing gil at them - and there are far easier and faster ways to generate gil than airships.