AST, MCH, DRK and their failure as new jobs at HW launch

[RiceisNice]

It is. What I am saying is: Let's see if it is a good perk or not based on the content. I'm just going by history, and there were almost no magical fights then. I really don't see giving DRK one ability changing that mechanic much, otherwise no one would use PLD.

It's all well and good that a DRK can DPS better, but their physical cooldowns suck when compared to a PLD and their blocks. DPS means nothing when you're dead, as the saying goes...

Wat. FCoB was filled to the brim with magic damage and that's why drg needed a magic defense buff.

They also have the same amount of cooldown that affect physical attacks as paladin, unless you want to consider bulwuck to be a reliable one. DA'd soul eater also heals for quite a bit too that it's another form of mitigation.

You're also focusing too much on one aspect. Both tanks have the tools to survive what gets thrown at them, both physical and magical. DRK pulls more dps while maintanking, while PLD has more party survivability through divine veil, stinkskin and protect to ease on healer mana.

[Shiki_Lockhart]

stinkskin

LOL, When I saw this I laughed so hard with the typo (or was intentional? :x).

Stinkskin new lvl 60 WHM spell. Stinkskin makes all mobs run away with fear debuff on hit and leaving a poison dot with 500 potency during 15s. ( I know is overpowered but is intentional for the joke )

[pouncing]

DRK can do every single fight in this game fine. Could a PLD/WAR do certain fights better yeah they could, but a DRK with proper CD rotations can do them sometimes just as well. Where DRK shines is magic based damage. if there is a magic based tank buster DRK can have that covered every time with Dark Mind where the other two have to blow one of their all damage CD's. This lets the DRK use their all damage CD's at other times reducing the stress on the rest of the party. I do think DRK needs a little bit of a buff maybe fix Dark Dance and possibly reduce shadow walls CD but it really is fine and has cut its own place out.

TLR PLD/WAR have a very slight advantage if any in non-magic fights where as DRK has a large advantage in magic based fights and higher DPS than PLD on top of that. If you dont believe me give me a fight where you think DRK would fail and i will tell you a CD rotation that will work.

[SpecialKK]

Before knowing how the cards worked, I thought there might be a way to "force" certain results essentially making them heal/support. I wondered if SE envisioned them as not as good as whm/sch but provide tp/mp so that brd/mch is not required for 8man

[Odett]

Yeah, I agree, DRK is a badly implemented job. That must be why the world first A4S clear had a DRK tank.


So what if you have to work harder to play the job effectively? I see that as a good thing; it keeps me on my toes. If you wanna play a tank that requires much less effort, that's what PLD is for.

[Lemuria]

Yeah, I agree, DRK is a badly implemented job. That must be why the world first A4S clear had a DRK tank.

Bonus demerits for not paying attention in class. No one is arguing that Dark Knight has the best magic mitigation of all the tanks, so using Alexander as an example is just a means of intentionally weighting your arguments. The argument is whether or not Dark Knight can hold up as equally in a physically based fight, and the answer is not as straightforward.

Personally, I have no real issues healing a Paladin, Warrior or a Dark Knight in just about any current content. That being said, I'd be a fool to ignore the differences between the three. It's a fact that Dark Knight takes heavier damage than a Paladin, and has fewer mitigation options than a Warrior. Later raids may require a bigger emphasis on physical damage as opposed to magic, which might push Dark Knight out of favor.

I mean, let's face it... Living Dead is an awful skill, no matter how much you try and play it up.

I'm not going to say Dark Knight is in any danger right now, but it will all depend on future content to see whether or not their lack of mitigation skills will lead to a downfall.

[Odett]

snip

Well yeah, of course they're gonna take heavier damage as they don't have a shield, but the higher skill ceiling required to play DRK and WAR makes them much more versatile tanks (DRK MT and WAR OT) than a standard PLD and WAR combo (unless you like having double WAR, but that's a bit redundant IMO). Sure, the PLD is the undisputed king of steady mitigation. That's their intended purpose, but they're also more limited as to what they can do as a result, especially in the damage department. Also, on top of being the best magic-based tanks, their AoE capabilities are absolutely wonderful.

I fail to see their lack of mitigation skills. Dark Dance is on a 60 second cooldown, yeah, it's not a very strong CD, but you can pair it up with something else, like Foresight. Shadowskin is your basic Rampart, and its low cool down makes it a very steady skill to rely on. Bloodbath already benefits from Darkside, and then you got Shadow Wall and Convalescence. Yes, WARs have MORE cooldowns, but WAR cooldowns generally require you to combine some in order to be more effective. For example, you'd be a full to use Thrill of Battle or Foresight by themselves.

As for Living Dead, I think it's not such a bad skill. I see it like this: Holmgang has a 6 second duration, but the 1 HP can occur at any point, meaning you can have 2 seconds left and have to heal the WAR in 1 second or they're dead. It also has the risk of being used when you're scared and not having your HP reduced to 1 within 6 seconds means you essentially wasted your skill, and not getting to 1 HP and taking AoE damage as a result of not being able to move can be a very embarrassing experience. Living Dead has a longer duration, allowing full 10 seconds of safety, and then resetting back to 10 seconds when fatal damage is taken. The main fault with Living Dead is that it requires a certain degree of communication with your healer. Topping off the tank as soon as they enter Walking Dead wastes the seconds you had remaining under invulnerability, and it works wonders with benediction, allowing you a full 9 seconds of being invincible. I will agree that the skill is more stressful without a WHM in the party. But it's also a very clutch skill and its longer margin of error than Holmgang and the timer resetting back to 10 seconds when you take fatal damage have allowed me to finish off a boss during those very annoying 2% or 1% HP moments when everyone else in the party is dead, and preventing a wipe during that magic 1% HP pixels just feels amazing.

[LittleArrow]

Better to be under-powered on launch than over-powered, like Ninja was.

This is where I disagree. Ninja is extremely popular from what I see within my group of friends and those I play with. I've been playing MMO's for over 10yrs (I know I'm a young'n right? ;D) and the general idea of new jobs were always, "Wait for the nerfs to come out," not "Wait for it to get buffed."

Rolling out an underpowered class throws away all the excitement and interest, which is the last thing you want for a new shiny product. I can only speak about MCH in this case, but having played 1.0, participated in the survey, and was one of the voices crying out for the "gun class," I strongly attest to this class being mishandled. It's getting better, for sure, but overall it's not the class I think many expected.

For those that played FFXI, I view MCH as Corsair with all of its limitations and none of the fun. They took the fun mini-buff game (which made corsair a blast to play) and half-hazardly threw it on a healer... a healer who should be spending their attention to healing is now drawing cards XD. Yet, we kept all the RNG. DPS is riddled with RNG already, and acceptably so with crit hits. However, RNG just to play the class? RNG is not fun. Sure, it can be exciting and rewarding to get that one big hit that's dependent on crits; yet, you're holding out with RNG just for our basic moves?

With MCH I want to come out blazing! Shooting crazy bullets, pistol whipping, duel-wielding, and overall being a major badass! You know, like the preview:



Or at the very least, give us the same swag as another techy gunfighter from the FF series

[Destomius]

This is where I disagree. Ninja is extremely popular from what I see within my group of friends and those I play with. I've been playing MMO's for over 10yrs (I know I'm a young'n right? ;D) and the general idea of new jobs were always, "Wait for the nerfs to come out," not "Wait for it to get buffed."

So you think that's better than the possibility that a player spends time and esoterics on a job, only to see it nerfed to the point they no longer find it fun?

[RiceisNice]

So you think that's better than the possibility that a player spends time and esoterics on a job, only to see it nerfed to the point they no longer find it fun?

You'd have to do something drastic like changing their playstyle or removing utilities for it to be that big. You could also flip it around...the class gets a buffed and they suddenly want to change after spending esotarics on their first class.