Bard - they broke my job

[Aiselia]

they fixed it

They fixed it by adding a downside to using an ability that leaves you at the same relative damage you were at before?

Mobility? get feint, stutter-step, cancel your damn casts

Except that's all still less mobile than before. When people talk about losing mobility, they're not claiming that they're not able to cancel casts.

Your mobility, your class identity, they're all there

Really? The 100% uptime while being fully mobile is still there?

Oh wait, are you going to suggest turning off WM even though that's like telling a DRG to just skip Heavy Thrust if they're having problems keeping BOTD up?

I am i190 and can easily keep up, if not surpass people around my ilvl

And I've grouped with i190s that can't keep up with my i179 DRG or i172 SMN.

What does this mean? Absolutely nothing. Relative skill will always skew what it looks like a class can do.

[Pernix]

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Relatively damage? Do your math: 380-400/600 versus 1.1k/1.3k, that's not the same relative damage.
Next.
It's less mobile while having more damage. Your class identity isn't being hyper mobile and spamming arrows like a moron. Your identity is being a ranged DPs who has more opportunities for mobility while having support. You have half the cast times of a BLM, allowing you a myriad of possibilities for movement. You're still plenty mobile, and of course it's not 100% mobility, it's not supposed to be. That's not what a ranged DPS is, in any game, in real life, thematically, mechanically.=, what have you. Hyper mobility and damage do not mix. Never did I suggest taking WM, because I don't do that. So what I'm hearing from you with that last bit of your response is they raised the skill floor for BRD and you don't like it. Got it. I know what I can do, and what I can do compared to others with my same skill level and gear, that's not relative skill.

[RiceisNice]

...

...

Clash of opinions and misconceptions from both sides. I can still play bard well, doesn't change the fact I do not like how it plays with cast times. For me it's mechanical, espesically as someone who catches their GCD and hit skills as they come up.

The way it is right now, both classes are closely identical to each other in gameplay because of WM/GB being functionally the same. Only MCH doesn't frustrate me at times with trying to get double oGCDs in one weaponskill because of multi-dot procs.

Oh and for the record, they initially showcased machinist as the ranged class that could "stand still to do more damage". Until job trailers, there was no mention on 2.0 classes, until said trailer which showcased Wanderer's Minuet. That already raised questions with how it interacted with barrage (since it disables auto attacks), and some other questions that were not brought up until implimentation (how cast times affects bard's tool kit). Granted this is all coming from afull time bard main back in 2.0. I did not like the direction that bard was taken, or really the current state of BRD/MCH compared to each other due to the function of GB/WM being given to both of them.

[Aiselia]

Relatively damage? Do your math: 380-400/600

I'm not going to link it because of various people getting things deleted for showing parses, but I just googled 2.55 Bard DPS and have seen several posts and videos of people pulling over 500 DPS pre-HW.

If you only ever hit 400, apparently you weren't doing that great. "Next."

Your identity is

No, that's your opinion on what the identity is.

it's not supposed to be.

Then clearly it was bugged for 2 years.

That's not what a ranged DPS is, in any game

Wrong again. If you haven't played every game, you shouldn't say what it isn't in any game.

they raised the skill floor for BRD

Anyone who's read my posts before knows that I don't agree they made it any harder. I've said many, many times that they've made the class easier.

IJ makes TP management and dot upkeep way easier. The cast time forcing a limit on how many OGCDs you can use makes it easier. Barrage simply being "next weaponskill" makes it easier because you only have to know "Use it before Empy" and not have to pay attention to your auto attacks to maximize it.

I know what I can do

Apparently not if you think Bards capped at 400 DPS pre-HW.

[SlyRoyale]

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Actually, there were BRDs who broke 500+ DPS on pre-Echo T13 in continuous parses. It was doable back then, provided that the only time people needed songs was during divebombs and Teraflare. Aside from that, I agree with you that BRD isn't about running around firing arrows with abandon. We're a ranged DPS that can provide support with our songs, be it lowering the magical resistance of our foes, or rejuvenating the resources of our casters and physical hitters (or prevent a debilitating ailment being inflicted on one of them).

.

First off, your opinion doesn't match SE's opinion apparently. Even in the most movement-intensive fights, you're going to have plenty of moments where you can stay still (and for party coordination, this is further emphasized to bait out certain attacks and make them easier to avoid like the Oppressor's Resin Bombs and Photon Spasers in A1S). Even then, we're still far more mobile than any true caster. Second, watching for Bloodletter resets and your auto attacks isn't any harder than using Iron Jaws and Empyreal Arrow. It just requires awareness, and nothing more. In fact, watching for auto-attacks is still present as long as you're stance dancing or have to turn off WM for a bit due to a movement-intensive part of a fight (i.e. Ravana's orbs, or the Living Liquid's Ferrofluid).

If anything, BRD is a bit clunky and could do with a bigger library of songs to support the party, but it's still in a good place. Could things be done to make it more fluid? Definitely. As of now, though, there isn't much to complain about since the issues are manageable.

[Gaignen]

There's a number of reasons I dislike 3.x BRD:

-oGCD weaving clunky.
-BL animation eats GCD time.
-Lost unique ability to be reactive for movement (we now have to pre-plan like casters).
-With 100% uptime Requiem (1 min each 3.5 with MP use/regen) we give casters +6% DPS overall, needs 2 casters to do more than break party DPS even.
-The above is useless in some parties/solo.
-All our support costs DPS (singing time or 15% penalties). Our only other excuse for having lower DPS (mobility) is now reduced to less than SMN.
-Mage type casters get a flat Rear acc cap, not us.
-Mage hits ignore parry, not ours.
-Ravana's "Seeing~" mechanics.

But more importantly to me is that I no longer have fun playing the job, it's now a caster. I hate playing caster DPS jobs. For me SE have broken the job. Don't try to tell me to gitgud, that spits in the face of the fact that my enjoyment of an entertainment source that I pay for has been ruined, and is just plain rude.

[Aiselia]

snip

Not even going to bother with you. Don't need this thread getting purged too.

[SlyRoyale]

-oGCD weaving clunky.

Legit issue, but manageable.

-BL animation eats GCD time.

Due to the change of play style introduced in 3.0, clipping into your GCD with Bloodletter is oddly ideal due to it being instant cast for the same amount of potency, on top of our two main DoTs having a 50% chance of resetting its recast whenever they tick for critical damage.

-Lost unique ability to be reactive for movement (we now have to pre-plan like casters).

I would argue that this isn't much of an issue since we can still react better to AoEs than true casters can. In fact, all jobs are no strangers to pre-planning for AoEs. Melees have to watch out for them while landing their positionals, and tanks also have to hold the targets in certain spots--at least have them face away from the party and make it easier for the aforementioned melee jobs to do high damage.

-With 100% uptime Requiem (1 min each 3.5 with MP use/regen) we give casters +6% DPS overall, needs 2 casters to do more than break party DPS even.
-The above is useless in some parties/solo.

Foe Requiem is still an increase of DPS, especially when you have your healers assisting with it too. Even if the only caster in your party is a healer, Foe Requiem can still help out. It even boosts the damage of NIN's elemental Ninjutsu and DRK's spells, albeit slightly due to the frequency of when they're used.

-All our support costs DPS (singing time or 15% penalties). Our only other excuse for having lower DPS (mobility) is now reduced to less than SMN.

Which is why you try to play these songs during downtime or in uptime where it won't have a major impact on your DPS when it matters. Even then, WM grants us a 30% damage boost so playing Ballad or Paeon only reduces the bonus to 15%. This is far better than doing -20% of our DPS back before the stance was added.

-Mage type casters get a flat Rear acc cap, not us.
-Mage hits ignore parry, not ours.

This is because casters deal magical damage where BRDs deal physical. It's not an issue in the slightest.

-Ravana's "Seeing~" mechanics.

Again, a non-issue. Fights like Ravana are scripted, making it easy to know when he'll perform these moves.

It is a shame that you do not enjoy the job anymore. Although, bear in mind that BRD is not a true caster and still retains advantages over true caster jobs. We are still more mobile than casters and we bring utility most jobs don't have in their toolkit. I won't tell you to git gud as it'd just lead to senseless namecalling and whatnot, but I will say that some of the points you brought up aren't major issues aside from the clunkiness, which is manageable.

Not even going to bother with you. Don't need this thread getting purged too.

My points still stand. Even the most movement-intensive fights do not demand constant movement for an extended period of time, and if they do it's usually during downtime or doesn't last that long anyway. The clunkiness is one thing, but paying attention to Bloodletter and auto-attacks isn't what I would call more "difficult" compared to the Wanderer's Minuet.

[Aiselia]

Even the most movement-intensive fights do not demand constant movement for an extended period of time

And I never said that they do.

And that's exactly why I'm not going to get into an argument with you.

[seorin]

Even then, WM grants us a 30% damage boost so playing Ballad or Paeon only reduces the bonus to 15%. This is far better than doing -20% of our DPS back before the stance was added.

1) That's not how math works. 15% is still 15%. If you want to be pedantic, we deal 10.5% more damage with both ballad and WM up compared to using neither.

2) The DPS gap between BRD and other classes is the same as it was at 50 without WM. It's not a buff, it's an added mechanic we have to deal with to be as good as before. Without it we're worse than a BLM who ignores Enochian.

In short, BRD are giving up more than ever and receiving nothing in return. That's an issue even beside the more salient point that a lot of BRD players don't enjoy dealing with cast bars, and that's why they played BRD in the first place.