Why do the writers hate Foulques?

[ChazNatlo]

He stole money because he was starving. I'd be willing to bet he was starving because he's part of an oppressed minority in Gridanian culture. No one wants a Duskwight around. His race, while not always explicitly mentioned, is at the crux of his struggles.

Not my point. This is relevant BACKSTORY information, but it only comes out because when things have progressed so far that you're now in a duel to the death. ((I forget how that plays out, does he attack you or do you shut down his attempts at discussion and force a fight?)) Or he's staggering backwards over a cliff. I forget exactly WHEN it comes out, but it is at the end of the questline when things have progressed too far to end happy.

I'm not arguing that His lot didn't suck because of his race. And I'm not arguing that he should have stayed silent. I'm arguing that challenging people to fights because you are angry about race issues without explaining the anger OR the race issues doesn't make you a paragon of the disenfranchised.

Also, him and a group of ((Presumably Midlander)) non oppressed persons stole the money because they were hungry. Because everyone was hungry. Though yes, it is possible that he is moreso, though this isn't mentioned.

[Havenae]

On the other side of the coin...

I thought Foulques was a dick and a bully. Because of that I didn't really let the racism affect me. I figured that was Gridania's problem, not mine. I judge by merit and personality in reality, as such it bleeds over to what I play in fantasy land. Ultimately Foulques made his own choices. maybe he was dealt a shit hand by his "friends" but what he chose to do afterwards was his own doing. We are also ALWAYS at least partially responsible for our plights in life. Because of that I did not feel one iota of sympathy for him.

[Naunet]

I'm not arguing that His lot didn't suck because of his race. And I'm not arguing that he should have stayed silent. I'm arguing that challenging people to fights because you are angry about race issues without explaining the anger OR the race issues doesn't make you a paragon of the disenfranchised.

It didn't take getting to the level 30 quest to realize that Foulques is a Duskwight and thus part of an oppressed minority. The NPC scene you walk past every time you enter the Lancer's Guild brings that point home pretty hard. His "friends" turning on him at the moment of confession was also rife with racial tension (he makes it a point that they called him racial slurs and said, "Of course it's the Duskwight"). Basically everything around the situation, both before, during, and after the quest chain, is saturated in the Wildwood/Midlander subjugation of Duskwights.

I didn't really take his challenges all that personally. Except for the last quest, no one was actually hurt, and he repeatedly displayed respect for the PC (if also some envy and frustration that the PC was refusing to consider his complaints legitimate). The level 30 chain where he does hurt people felt like SE was going out of their way to transform him into a hateable bad guy. I mean, he even randomly got the ability to summon zombies. Clearly the writers wanted us to perceive him as evil, but it felt utterly forced.

That said, I'm not trying to paint him as a "paragon of the disenfranchised". What I am saying is that it's silly to expect anyone to be able to remain polite after they spend so long living under that kind of society. And I think the story could have portrayed its themes better.

[ChazNatlo]

Words

Yes. I understand the concept of Nice=/=good. Foulques has very good reason for being a dick, and I am not saying that him being an aggressive ill tempered bully is unexpected or that it makes him a bad character or that his actions are such terrible things*. I honestly think the story was weak anyways. But I'm saying that he didn't make complaints or try to justify his actions to be based on his race in any way till the end. Till the end, he was a member of an oppressed minority, who happened to be a jerk, and wasn't really helping his oppressed race be seen as anything other than jerks. Next time they see a Duskwright in the guild, their minds are going to drift back to that malcontent who rambled endlessly about reckless courage and whatnot. We got to see so much more of Foulques than the guild ever did. All they saw was a bully and a kidnapper ((Sure, the guy went to Foulques of his own accord, but the moment Foulques held him there as leverage for you to do as he wanted, he was in fact a kidnapper.))

*Though his challenges aren't the problem with his philosophy. They're him being a belligerent, but his philosophy was going to get someone killed out in the field away from the controlled setting of the Guild. Most of this argument hinges on him having so much more charisma than Ywain, he's going to attract others to his way of thinking. We can thank the Hydalyn that it was us and we can take the danger. He only hurt people in the 30 quest because he had broken emotionally because the falseness of his philosophy was shown to him. He didn't go on a rampage because he was an evil jerk. He did it because he had developed a set of beliefs to get past his worst moments, which yes, were triggered by racism, and he was shown that his beliefs were false. If Ywain hadn't stepped in when he did in the 25 quest, Both our asses would have been gored/trappled. This is in a subnote because you wanted to move past the argument of his courage philosophy, so I've split it from my main argument.

[myahele]

The funny thing about Ywain was that he was friends with Landanel growing up.

If you did the moogle quest you find out that Landanel's father was a criminal and his mother was not well-liked and as such he was also discriminated against by Gridanians thinking he'll end up like his father. He decided to leave Gridania so that his bad reputation won't end up affecting Ywain.

So Ywain would have understood Foulques and if Foulques weren't so stubborn Ywain would have probably reinstated him into the guild/wailers.

For those who forgot, Landanel was one of the Company of Heroes and Titan quest-giver:

[AnaviAnael]

And I think the story could have portrayed its themes better.

I have to slightly disagree. This being a class quest, I'd rather it focus more on lancer stuff. However, I do agree that this is a very interesting topic that should be explored in the future. With all of the racial issues going on in America right now, it's a particularly relevant theme that would be relatable with people in the game's community.

[LineageRazor]

Foulques is a bit like a scaled-down Nidhogg (pun not intended) - bad, unfair stuff happened to him in the past, and now in the present he takes out his ire on folks whether or not they had any part in that bad stuff.

I disagree that he was painted like a shallow villian that the player should hate. I felt sorry for him; he got a raw deal. But that didn't make what he was doing the right thing, and he really needed to be stopped. "He", in the previous sentence, works just as well referring to Foulques or Nidhogg.

Hopefully folks in Gridania will see Foulques as an object lesson as to why mistreatment of Duskwights is a bad thing, not as a reason to further persecute them. Undoubtedly, though, some folks will learn one lesson, other will learn the other.

[Samcaesar]

Snip

I don't know, it's not like we didn't notice Duskwights still being treated like crap, and it doesn't seem like anyone bothered to apologize for that horrible stuff either. Likewise, it's not like Ishgard didn't by and large love taking part in the slaughter of heretics and dragons, and it's not like there wasn't a force telling Ishgardian people the truth that was believable for some people for a while now (I mean, Ysayle had to recruit heretics from somewhere..). Like that's the thing, they were wronged in the past and they're both painted as seething rageful monsters stuck in the past despite the issues still existing (Ishgard retaining the eyes/slaughtering the dragons and heretics and the oppression of the Duskwights).



The fact that they gave him stereotypical evil powers, eg zombies and all out of nowhere, kinda makes me think that he was, similarly to Nidhogg being absolutely consumed by hate whenever there is probably multiple ways to have calm(ed) him down, such as Hraesvelgr reigning him in (He was literally relying on Hraesvelgr's eye to live, we see what happens when you rely on a Dragon's eye to make yourself stronger with Estinien, and yet somehow Hraesvelgr has no influence on Nidhogg?) or Midgardsormr/Hraesvelgr singing their own song to cancel out Nidhogg's (Especially considering we earn Midgardsormr's respect and all, you'd figure he could do something). Like.. Due to the way they put both characters out as insatiable monsters consumed with rage only stoppable with death, I'd say, yeah, they kind of are painted like a shallow villian that the player should hate.

It probably won't though, it'd likely be a "history is written by the victor" sort of situation, Foulques will be written off with as some Duskwight consumed with anger trying to justify himself with some none issue about racism against Duskwight when his actual problem was his freaky warped method of 'courage'. Look how some players are interperting and how no one in the story seems to really take his issues seriously, why would Gridania care about Foulques after he's dead when they didn't care about him when he was alive? I mean, what do we really learn from Foulques "If Duskwights get mad about the oppression they face, we've got the Lancer guild to take them down" or something? Like.. Foulques certainly didn't have to die either, his death seems like a sorta "Divine punishment/Just desserts" sorta deal kinda cementing in the whole "Foulques is evil and awful" sorta deal.

[ChazNatlo]

Right. Tired of trying to suggest that Foulques isn't fighting against oppression. He is oppressed, he is fighting, I don't get the feeling that he is doing this as a Duskwight as much as he is doing it as Foulques, whom is a Duskwright that got a bad shake.

So arguing from a story writing perspective, I think we are supposed to sympathize with Foulques. I feel the story is supposed to feel like a classic tragedy. He needed to die not because we hate him and he needed to be stopped, but because we like him and his death hits us with pathos. If we weren't supposed to regret his lot in life, they'd have just left out the tragic backstory. And he fell off the cliff not because of any symbolism regarding a fall or the world invoking Karma on him, but because him falling off a cliff (arguably) leaves the WoL's hands clean. He had to die because with one more cutscene left, him NOT dying would have been worse, from a story writing standpoint.

[Samcaesar]

Snip

If it wasn't at least partially about that, then his whole inclusion as a Duskwight and his personal focus on it along with all those bits about Duskwights being treated like crap would be unneeded.

The ending sounds much like either "Here is narrative reason for this death" or "Whelp we dug ourselves into a hole with bad writing. Let's just kill him off", plus there's always Postmoogle quests to add onto stuff (Like a quest line featuring an injured Foulques and showing him helping change the issues with Duskwights in Gridania successfully). Plus you don't go handing off "Evil power #1: Raising the dead" to someone you're suppose to sympathize with, it certainly doesn't help when Ywain is all "Whelp, that sucks, but whatever I guess" about it, not even a "This event has made me realize I've been overlooking some awful stuff, I need to change and help others change in memory of Foulques."