PLD Requires more Skills

[Brannigan]

Tempered Will is far from useless.

Tempered Will isn't useless, but I wouldn't call it far from useless either. Basically, it's a minor convenience most of the time. Any Heavy or Bind (or knockback for that matter) that the devs don't want you to remove will just ignore it, and the knockback prevention is usually just saving a couple GCDs. You can do some cool stuff with it, but I think Tempered Will itself is way too limited. It either needs a much shorter cooldown (giving paladins a "tank that can just ignore knockbacks" niche) or to be combined with another one of our abilities (maybe Bulwark, same CD). Right now it's binary: this fight does make use of Tempered Will or it doesn't. To compare it to a similar situational ability, Holmgang also prevents knockback/draw in, but has the added function of preventing death. Plunge has the effect of closing gaps, but also always does damage. Please note that I am not trying to say Holmgang is stronger than Tempered Will, I am saying that situational abilities like this should have an added function that is usually useful.

Cover is a real offender of being too situational as well. The devs basically have to invent situations to make cover useful and it will never be a requirement for any fight. You miiiight be able to reset a debuff stack in A3S but I think the timing doesn't work for it. I think if it reduced covered damage by an amount (so basically with paladin as OT your MT has another defensive cooldown) it might be okay. That or like share heals with the target or something. Just making it work on magic damage as well would also help against a lot of boss-targets-dps abilities.

edit

That being said. PLD needs some help in the fun department. Boredom/Simplicity shouldn't be a feature of the class since literally no other class in the game has that.

Also yeah, the whole "paladins are supposed to be boring" argument is pretty stupid. Ryu in Street Fighter is straightforward, but it doesn't mean he's boring to play or that his moves can't be used in interesting ways.

[Phoenicia]

Snip.

But Ryu IS boring!....... The whole Street Fight is boring!.. There, I stated my personal opinion as a fact and you have to accept it!...... j/k

Holmgang is stronger than Tempered Will as it is WAR's version of HG. But that in itself is a problem. Holmgang is an ability that is trying to do too many things at the same time, something that makes it a bit iffy. Imo Holmgang should be useable without a target, maybe have it NOT apply the root on your if you have no target. I'm not gonna discuss its situationality. Holmgang is interesting because, like a lot of WAR's toolkit, it can be used as a choice. "Should I use it now and prevent a knockback" or "save it and prevent a death without using other CDs".

Cover had seen some good utility in the past. But Cover, IMO should also "cover" magical attacks. Most other games that have similar abilities (Aion Bodyguard and Tera getting between boss and party member and blocking) allow for magical damage to be transferred as well. This would increase its usefulness by a lot. Specially if PLD can, for example, cover the other tank and pop HG to negate damage from two targets (like the hands split in A3S).

The problem is, the devs can't design encounters where Cover or Tempered will are mandatory because that would literally shelf the other two tanks. Devs should, however, make niche uses (like T13 Earth Shakers) for these abilities. These abilities are, sadly, just situational and cannot have anything done to them other than changing them entirely.

As for PLD being "boring", that is a subjective thing, some people find it fun to 1, 2, 3 and pop a CD whenever needed. Others like complexity like resource management (Wrath/Abandon or MP). If PLD's "simplicity" is boring you, then it is not the class that you should be playing. I know there is also the aesthetic thing (Liking sword&board or knight in shining armor), but in the end you pick a class that already plays the way you like, not a random class and then demand it plays the way you like. Though, to some people, aesthetics are too important I guess.

Take me for example, I despise the two handed axe aesthetic and actually like dual swords, sword&board or spears. But the play style that I like is tanks that build up resource then unload (warrior rage in WoW in Vanilla/TBC, DK runes in Wrath) and pet summoning casters (In WoW I had a warlock alt and in Aion I had Spiritmaster alt). As a result I ended up playing WAR in the 2.xx series with SMN as my off-spec when content was solo-tanked. I thought DRK (a class I hoped would be a DPS anyways) would be a new favorite but it ended up a bust as it felt (to me) a lot like a PLD with an MP minigame. So ignoring aesthetics, I chose WAR until 3.0 came out, and now I'm a SMN main (again) because I hate being relegated to the OT spot. If I'm to act as a DPS, might as well play a full fledged one. WAR is my off-spec now and my second class to gear as I still enjoy tanking.

My personal story should be of no importance to this thread, but I mentioned it as a reference of how you should pick your class instead of picking the class that looks like what you like and then demand it plays the way you like. I wish monks could tank, that would be cool, also pugilists had the tanking abilities early 1.xx series, but you don't see me on the forums demanding that it does.

[Brian_]

PLDs don't need more skills. They just need slight skill reworks in order to unify the functionality of their skill-set.

An example of this is Clemency. If Clemency was practical to cast as a MT and triggered Divine Veil's effect, PLD would be much better off for it. If casting Clemency was a thing, you would also make the MP returns from Sheltron and Riot Blade more relevant. There might be some overlap with DRK MP management but I think you could've just as easily used it to differentiate the jobs even more -- DRK would spend their MP on self-buffs and damage, PLDs would spend their MP on group healing and support. In the end, you make Clemency, Divine Veil, Convalescence, Sheltron, and Riot Blade all better with such simple changes and help make PLD more unique.

That is the real thing PLD lacks. Design consistency and the strength born from it. Just look at Shield Swipe. You give PLDs the ability to block but then give them no synergy with it because of how bad Shield Swipe is. So, it ends up turning blocking into a very boring ability when it could be a very dynamic and interactive one. That's why I liked the change of making Shield Swipe activate the combo component of RoH, RA, and GB. You also make cover more beneficial because you can cover the MT while OTing or DPS while they're dealing with adds, pop Sheltron/Bulwark, and trigger Shield Swipe even while OTing. You make multi skills better through internal synergy while making PLD more unique just by changing 1 skill.

The only example of internal synergy on PLD is Bulwark, Sheltron, and Awareness. You want to pair Awareness with Bulwark and Sheltron ideally. The reason is because of attack ordering in this game and how blocks are prioritized. In some games, "avoidance" will push crits, crushing blows, and whatnot off the hit table. In this game, it doesn't. As a result, you cannot block a crit. So, in order to maximize the effectiveness of block, you want to push crits off the hit table using Awareness. But, it's such a small benefit that it's hardly worth much.

What people don't understand is how situational is literally defined. If you make a skill used more even without changing the skill, it's no longer situational. They can do this through internal synergy. They just don't.

[Reynhart]

Imo Holmgang should be useable without a target, maybe have it NOT apply the root on your if you have no target.

Holmgang could be an AoE drawn-in. Every monster in the area would be drawn and bound but you could use is without targeting anything.

If casting Clemency was a thing, you would also make the MP returns from Sheltron and Riot Blade more relevant.

It really hurts to se DRK recovering twice as much MP with Syphon Strike than us with Riot Blade

In my free time, I'm testing a PLD focused on STR/PIE to see how consistently I can cast Clemency. Even with a slightly higher natural MP regen, I still need 3-4 Riot Blades to recover what one cast of Clemency costs, it's way too much.

[Brannigan]

you should pick your class instead of picking the class that looks like what you like and then demand it plays the way you like

Sure, but let's not pretend that's what I was doing. Asking for a few of our worse skills to not be SO mediocre is not the same as asking for a complete reworking of the job. You won't find people tut-tutting monks who want One Ilm Punch to not be so useless in PVE. I like the core of paladin. It's fun. It'd just be more fun if Swipe/Veil/Cover/Tempered Will/maybe a couple others got some tweaks to make them more useful in general combat.

These abilities are, sadly, just situational and cannot have anything done to them other than changing them entirely.

Yeah, that's why they should change them. They didn't leave crappy 2.0 Holmgang as it was even though they could have attached the "you can't die" thing to something else.

In my free time, I'm testing a PLD focused on STR/PIE to see how consistently I can cast Clemency. Even with a slightly higher natural MP regen, I still need 3-4 Riot Blades to recover what one cast of Clemency costs, it's way too much.

Paladin gets like 3.7 MP per piety. You're not going to get enough from it to make any difference.

[Reynhart]

Paladin gets like 3.7 MP per piety. You're not going to get enough from it to make any difference.

Without any piety bonus, I almost always need 4 Riot Blade to refill what Clemency costs. With Alex piety accessories (most of them), it moves frequently to 3.
That's not a drastic change but it's still something

The thing is that, as piety on gear go up, you gain more and more mana with natural regen whereas Clemency still costs the same. By the end of 3.x, maybe it will work
And that's one way to use time when I'm bored
I'd like to do some testing with a BRD/MCH, though...

[pandabearcat]

If clemency was reduced to 2.0 seconds I envision a lot more use coming from it.

If sheltron's cd was reduced by 2-5 seconds every use of shield swipe it would be more interactive play, and keep PLD as the "defensive king" rather than giving a dps buff.

I think PLD's cds are for the most part actually pretty good - one of the reasons actually that it feels like you have few interesting buttons is PLD brings the "core" cross class skills to all tanks. So in essence you are "losing" those slots in favor of like, protect, which you cast maybe never, and Foresight, which is pretty lackluster.

The core rotation I agree could use some changing - but in essence all 3 tanks have "boring" core rotations.

I also agree with increasing the threat of rage, and also possibly moving royal authority to the riot blade combo, giving us a clear DPS combo and a clear tanking combo - however this would reduce PLD threat even more - would need a rage/savage blade enmity buff.

They all have actually similar amounts of oGCD (actually war has the least oGCD of all 3, they only have their stun, and technically infuriate). Just PLD has really no thought into if and when they use their oGCDs.

I would like shield bash to have a much lower tp cost (like 60 TP), however using it causes it to increase in cost by 50% (stacking) for 15s. This way, we preserve the "stun chaining" (yea right) but at a higher cost, but if PLD do need to stun, they are not immediately down like 120 TP. Would be nice if (like shield swipe) it does not interrupt your combo.

[Reynhart]

The problem is, the devs can't design encounters where Cover or Tempered will are mandatory because that would literally shelf the other two tanks. Devs should, however, make niche uses (like T13 Earth Shakers) for these abilities. These abilities are, sadly, just situational and cannot have anything done to them other than changing them entirely.

Like I said in another topic, those abilities should be used to "bypass" some mechanics. Bypassing is not mandatory, since each mechanic already hat its solution, but it would be easier with a PLD. The downside is, again, less DPS that another tank who would need to properly deal with the mechanic.

That's exactly what Cover did in T13, by removing the puddles and why Tempered Will should be changed to make you impervious to status effect for 10s.
Since Cover doesn't need you to stand in between your target and the mob (like it did in FFXI), it could be totally justified to work on magical hits, too.

[karateorangutang]

But Ryu IS boring!....... The whole Street Fight is boring!.. There, I stated my personal opinion as a fact and you have to accept it!...... j/k

Holmgang is stronger than Tempered Will as it is WAR's version of HG. But that in itself is a problem. Holmgang is an ability that is trying to do too many things at the same time, something that makes it a bit iffy. Imo Holmgang should be useable without a target, maybe have it NOT apply the root on your if you have no target. I'm not gonna discuss its situationality. Holmgang is interesting because, like a lot of WAR's toolkit, it can be used as a choice. "Should I use it now and prevent a knockback" or "save it and prevent a death without using other CDs".

Cover had seen some good utility in the past. But Cover, IMO should also "cover" magical attacks. Most other games that have similar abilities (Aion Bodyguard and Tera getting between boss and party member and blocking) allow for magical damage to be transferred as well. This would increase its usefulness by a lot. Specially if PLD can, for example, cover the other tank and pop HG to negate damage from two targets (like the hands split in A3S).

The problem is, the devs can't design encounters where Cover or Tempered will are mandatory because that would literally shelf the other two tanks. Devs should, however, make niche uses (like T13 Earth Shakers) for these abilities. These abilities are, sadly, just situational and cannot have anything done to them other than changing them entirely.

As for PLD being "boring", that is a subjective thing, some people find it fun to 1, 2, 3 and pop a CD whenever needed. Others like complexity like resource management (Wrath/Abandon or MP). If PLD's "simplicity" is boring you, then it is not the class that you should be playing. I know there is also the aesthetic thing (Liking sword&board or knight in shining armor), but in the end you pick a class that already plays the way you like, not a random class and then demand it plays the way you like. Though, to some people, aesthetics are too important I guess.

Take me for example, I despise the two handed axe aesthetic and actually like dual swords, sword&board or spears. But the play style that I like is tanks that build up resource then unload (warrior rage in WoW in Vanilla/TBC, DK runes in Wrath) and pet summoning casters (In WoW I had a warlock alt and in Aion I had Spiritmaster alt). As a result I ended up playing WAR in the 2.xx series with SMN as my off-spec when content was solo-tanked. I thought DRK (a class I hoped would be a DPS anyways) would be a new favorite but it ended up a bust as it felt (to me) a lot like a PLD with an MP minigame. So ignoring aesthetics, I chose WAR until 3.0 came out, and now I'm a SMN main (again) because I hate being relegated to the OT spot. If I'm to act as a DPS, might as well play a full fledged one. WAR is my off-spec now and my second class to gear as I still enjoy tanking.

My personal story should be of no importance to this thread, but I mentioned it as a reference of how you should pick your class instead of picking the class that looks like what you like and then demand it plays the way you like. I wish monks could tank, that would be cool, also pugilists had the tanking abilities early 1.xx series, but you don't see me on the forums demanding that it does.

Yeah I wish I could put whatever aesthetic i wanted to on my tank. I play WAR now because I enjoy it's dynamic skill set, but I wish it looked more like gladiator does. I dig the middle eastern scimitar/buckler theme that gladiator gets at the beginning.

On the dynamics front, having cover block magic attacks wouldn't need fight redesigns, but it would allow for alternative strategies on fights with a single large boss. Fix the enmity on it's combo's. I think PLD still needs a way to get a regain effect, put it on tempered will while in sword oath. I agree with spooky that there should be a rework on how the slashing debuff works since so many classes utilize this type of weapon. Stackable up to 10% with everybody getting a 5% bebuff skill, although I admit this is a slippery slope, but just an initial idea.

I'd really like to see them only have one stance and get the other as a passive that when the active stance is turned on it deactivate the passive one.

PS Don't be bagging on my boy Ryu. He's got all sorts of cool characteristics about him... even if he is a karate Luke Skywalker. >.>;;