If Paladin is "specialized in defense" shouldn't its defense be better always?

[Zdenka]

The only thing you would get with PLD having DRG's piercing debuff is being able to not use a DRG and bring a MNK instead, but you would have lower DPS than just using DRK + DRG.

Yep but the difference wouldn't be as far off as it is now. Is what I was getting at.

[rawker]

In magic heavy fights, i would say that PLD are more suited to be OT.. Though a bit more support-oriented than a WAR OT. As for physical, PLD will be MT with WAR as OT having slashing debuff from WAR as PLD Darkside. So I guess a PLD is still not out of flavor but just needs a few QoL changes to make them more fun to play like increased enmity gained from generators so i can weave in more RAs in between gore dots.

[SpookyGhost]

All tanks now have 3 combos in their rotation, WAR is not that much more complicated. And the additionnal GCD for Damage and/or Mitigation is not a big deal and helps them recover TP. You could say, that PLD has also some GCD to manage if he wants to stun or use Shield Swipe.

WAR is more complicated.

Wrath/Abandon, the main mechanic of WAR, is based on certain GCDs (and some oGCDs). Skull Sunder, Butcher's Block, Maim, Storm's Eye, Storm's Path, Vengeance, Berserk, and Raw Intuition.

To fully maximize both DPS and mitigation you have to literally know exactly what GCD you will press every ~2.5s of the fight. If you slack on one GCD, now your IB is going to be one GCD later, or your Unchained, or you won't get your triple Fell Cleave, etc. etc. I don't know which tank you play, but if you ever MTed T13 when it was still relevant you'd notice that there is an incredibly careful dance to mitigate every Flare Breath, to mitigate every Flatten, and to use Unchained optimally.

Playing WAR to it's fullest extent is not as easy as PLD and DRK. Most people like to pretend that because PLD has 3 combos now, it's just as hard as WAR! Nah. We're out here working for this mitigation, for this damage, we have to learn the fight so intrinsically that it is etched into our brain. I have every single GCD I press in A1S mapped out to maximize my time in Deliverance, to have Unchained up to then build 5 stacks just in time for the cleave + tank buster, to then go back into Deliverance and have Path up every time it's needed but using BB when I can afford exactly 11 GCDs without it... WAR tanking isn't a walk in the park.

I know that all sounds like "WAR's the hardest therefore should be the best", but I don't believe that. Balancing around difficulty doesn't work out because people will just bring the best players of the hardest jobs and exclude all the easy to play jobs. But pretending like PLD and DRK are just as hard is a bit foolish. I don't mean that to be offensive, most people have this assumption now that PLD has 3 combo paths, but man... I did not put all my effort into learning every intricacy of this job to be compared to PLD, a job I played in 2.0 and randomly in every subsequent patch. I know what PLD is like, adding 2 more combos doesn't make that job any less mind-numbing.

I think Dark Mind is already a powerful skill to reduce magical damage, and DRK can drain life back with DA+Soul Eater. So, they don't have constant mitigation but constant self-healing (And I'm pretty sure they're close in terms of eHP)

I agree that Dark Mind is powerful, but I don't think it's powerful enough. I don't play DRK, though, so I am speaking out of line a bit - if you play DRK then I'm willing to believe it's as good as a shield. DA + Soul Eater, though, while a good HP regeneration isn't the equivalent of blocking an attack. You'll usually end up overhealing yourself (which means part or all of it is worthless) and when you don't, heals were coming anyway and now those are overhealing you. It's a similar situation to when WAR's IB was just a large heal and there's a reason that's been changed. Again, though, don't play DRK so might be wrong.

The problem with the "in-between" is when it's far enough. In magical figths, PLD really lacks mitigation. In physical fights, DRK lacks mitigation. But, either in magical of physical, having Inner Beast so often gives WAR sufficient mitigation to be MT all the time. And when mitigation is "sufficient", anything more quickly becomes a waste.

Yes, a DPS increase is a simple solution, but it bugs me to make all tanks more and more similar. I'd really like some adjustment that really change the strat between each tank.
That's why I suggested something to make WAR manage fights very differently.

When I look at WAR in 2.0 it had absolutely no mitigation, and no permanent healing boost. That was clearly not enough to survive content because of the damage scaling. But maybe it could have worked with only some of the changes from 2.1.

This is less a problem with WAR and more a problem with the fights themselves. Currently, outside of A4S possibly, no fight in Savage warrants PLD or DRK's mitigation over WAR's DPS output. If the damage was higher to showcase WAR's in-between mitigation and therefore warrant the higher mitigation of PLD/DRK then each job's roles would be more apparent. For DPS check fights with high damage, you'd bring a WAR as OT. For DPS check fights with lower damage (or more spread out damage), you'd bring a WAR as MT. For fights with heavy mitigation checks, you'd bring a DRK + PLD. And with gear, all 3 tanks would be able to do all of that.

I think 2.0 WAR could've worked with HP returned converting into shields rather than simply being an HP absorb, but they just decided to homogenize WAR with PLD. I don't think reverting everything back and making changes from there is the solution, though. We should work with what we've got and not make too many drastic changes. Give all the tanks an Eye debuff, give PLD some extra DPS, things would be a lot more even and you could use any comp without feeling the need to have a WAR or w/e.

[Xenosan]

Add Piercing Debuff to Royal Authority so that PLD can replace DRG, like DRK can replace MNK.

Regarding the Piercing debuff.. it's not a nerf exactly, but Monk isn't too happy with Delirium:

DRG took top-likely DPS single target, Battle Litany > Mantra, and DRK's Delirium == Dragon Kick's INT Down, so now Monks can just eat cake.

For ^this situation I'd prefer Delirium get a Blunt Resistance Down as well so that MNKs can drop Dragon Kick and enjoy Bootshine exclusively in Opo-Opo (DRK/MNK synergy just like WAR/NIN synergy). But I feel giving PLD Piercing Debuff replicates this problem for DRG (and worse, DRG can't 'drop' Disembowel), so I would want to consider other alternatives first.

With PLD OT healer utility, it could work, but some adjustments.. Clemency.. This spell works identical to Stoneskin - and that's a cross-classed Conjurer spell D:

3 second cast and interrupts combos.. In fact it's sort of worse than Stoneskin because proactive buffs like SS can be cast whenever. A heal needs to be timed. Timed! Jacking PLD DPS up is work enough already..

IMO Clemency should at least not interrupt combos.. and then maybe move it oGCD (could keep cast-time even). At least then it would be easier for PLD to land a well timed Clemency to help the healers out - hence actual OT contribution.

And Sheltron should block a magical attack.. I should just put that in my sig

[Isius]

And Sheltron should block a magical attack.. I should just put that in my sig

So much no to Sheltron should block magical dmg, I am just like the next Pld players in line. I Do want to see some changes done to Plds here and there, but don't make them op. If Sheltron could block magical dmg it would sorefully outclass every other tank ingame the way the game currently is...I just want a small boast in dps or in def, not a large one, and I want some redesigns of Clemency, Shield Swipe, and Divine Veil.

@Warrior Haters
And leave our War brothers alone, and don't say tanking as a War is comparable to Pld/Drk. lol Ask SE to fix Pld/Drk first, and make all tanks good for different reasons to be mts, and ots. Warriors work hard for what they get, there is a reason I play Pld over War more. I simply do not have that type of time/dedication to main Warrior why I play Pld.

[Zdenka]

Hi Xenosan, I mainly mean so that if a DRG is not in the party that the BRD and/or MCH are not penalized.

Basically 1 of those 2 is required for savage, so the only way to buff their damage is to bring a DRG, and then NIN buffs everyones damage. So with that last DPS spot you bring a ranged right?

So if you want to bring a MNK, you don't need the DRK so you can bring PLD, but then your BRD/MCH does 75 less DPS. You are just penalized for using that setup is all, is what I mean!

Its slightly different than MNK, whom is the only blunt user anyways so no one "needs" to help buff thier damage.

[Seku]

Blocking while casting needs to be a thing.

Support spells need their cast time lowered to match GCD.

Shield swipe needs to have it's potency lowered, but be oGCD or restore some small amount of TP.

RA, have it raise the paladin's spell casting speed.

With these adjustments you get better support OT and slightly better defense while in the MT spot for any defensive situation, while not being TP starved if the group is good enough to let them go on the offensive, assuming it's a "physical" fight.


They also need to give DRK a means to restore TP while OTing

[vedanforlife]

I'm of the impression that Shield Swipe needs a complete makeover. Pacification doesn't even work half the time except while leveling, but when you need it, you probably won't be able to use it because its not off GCD.

Here's how I would change Shield Swipe...

When in Shield Oath
Shield of Faith: Every successful block adds one stack to Shield of Faith for 20 seconds. When Shield of Faith is activated, reduces magical damage taken by 10% per stack consumed. Maximum 3 stacks. Recast: 90 seconds

When in Sword Oath
Wrathful Shield: Every auto-attack has a chance to gain one stack of Wrathful Shield. When Wrathful Shield is activated, does 150% damage per stack and restores 100 TP per stack used. Maximum 3 stacks. Recast: 90 seconds.

Obviously numbers would need to be tweaked but this IMO would be the easiest way to "fix" paladin TP, damage, and OT capability issues without drastically changing the existing toolkit.

[Synestra]

SE could always make shelltron to also block magic attacks(i actually got this impression from benchmark video), and the amount of blocked magic damage depends on your shield. Atm Hive would block approx 28% every 30s and with kite it would be slightly lower, makeing it almost good if not better than DM depending what kind of shield you use.

[Reynhart]

Wrath/Abandon, the main mechanic of WAR, is based on certain GCDs (and some oGCDs). Skull Sunder, Butcher's Block, Maim, Storm's Eye, Storm's Path, Vengeance, Berserk, and Raw Intuition.

They're based on your combos, mainly, it's not like jump into hoops to steadily built them.

To fully maximize both DPS and mitigation you have to literally know exactly what GCD you will press every ~2.5s of the fight.

To fully maxmize DPS as PLD, you have to think when you can stance dance properly. Because stance dancing delay your next GCD and interrupt combos. For DRK, you also have to think of your MP cost, of the skills you gain or lose in each stance.
I have the feeling that WAR like to think PLD and DRK will just Tank stance and repeat their combo while WAR is the only one who need to maximize its DPS. Besides, when MTing, PLD needs to switch between it's three combos constantly. Since WAR can't maintain all of its buff/debuff, while doing it's more powerful combo, you don't have to worry about that.
Let's don't forget that DRK is also a lot "faster" to play with a lot more CD skill.

I agree that Dark Mind is powerful, but I don't think it's powerful enough. I don't play DRK, though, so I am speaking out of line a bit

I haven't tried Alex Savage yet, but for all the rest Dark Mind is really useful, and a so "short" cooldown means that you'll usually stack it on top of one of your other CD.

DA + Soul Eater, though, while a good HP regeneration isn't the equivalent of blocking an attack.

If terms of overall damage taken, it's close. If you take 4000 after 20% reduction from block, it's really close to taking 5000 damage then leeching 1000.

You'll usually end up overhealing yourself (which means part or all of it is worthless) and when you don't, heals were coming anyway and now those are overhealing you.

Not really. Healers don't jump on you as soon as you lose a few thousands HP, so DA+Soul Eater will actually delay the "threshold" for when they need to pop a strong heal.
The problem with previous Inner Beast is that WAR did lose HP at a faster rate and only received really enhanced healing while Infuriated.

This is less a problem with WAR and more a problem with the fights themselves.

Of course, we have no personal beef with WARs. But the design and the tank meta favors them most, and we don't see the meta changing in another direction for now.

I think 2.0 WAR could've worked with HP returned converting into shields rather than simply being an HP absorb, but they just decided to homogenize WAR with PLD.

I also think previous Inner Beast would work wonder with the level 60. Our damage increased far more than our HP, so the scaling is much better. And with it, WAR would be more of a reactive tank than proactive, which, IMO, fits the job better, still helps it survive fights in the long run, but makes it less effective to eat several tankbusters, which would force some tank swaps.