If Paladin is "specialized in defense" shouldn't its defense be better always?

[Reynhart]

Anyway, that's just what I've noticed. I'd personally love all 3 tanks to be equally viable, but I don't think nerfing/changing mitigation is the solution. WAR has to work GCD to GCD to maximize damage and mitigation, and we don't even get the best damage reduction for either physical or magical. We don't need a buff, but we most certainly don't need a nerf.

All tanks now have 3 combos in their rotation, WAR is not that much more complicated. And the additionnal GCD for Damage and/or Mitigation is not a big deal and helps them recover TP. You could say that PLD has also some GCD to manage if he wants to stun or use Shield Swipe.

Something I think that would help, aside from the Eye debuff, is giving DRK a shield equivalent that only works on magic

I think Dark Mind is already a powerful skill to reduce magical damage, and DRK can drain life back with DA+Soul Eater. So, they don't have constant mitigation but constant self-healing (And I'm pretty sure they're close in terms of eHP)

So all tanks could do all content, PLD would excel in physical fight mitigation, DRK would excel in magical fight mitigation, and WAR would be in-between + provide more DPS than the other 2 tanks. Which is how I think SE intended for the jobs to be balanced, and they're nearly there, but the tiny differences in Savage become significantly bigger.

The problem with the "in-between" is when it's far enough. In magical figths, PLD really lacks mitigation. In physical fights, DRK lacks mitigation. But, either in magical of physical, having Inner Beast so often gives WAR sufficient mitigation to be MT all the time. And when mitigation is "sufficient", anything more quickly becomes a waste.

Yes, a DPS increase is a simple solution, but it bugs me to make all tanks more and more similar. I'd really like some adjustment that really change the strat between each tank.
That's why I suggested something to make WAR manage fights very differently.

When I look at WAR in 2.0 it had absolutely no mitigation, and no permanent healing boost. That was clearly not enough to survive content because of the damage scaling. But maybe it could have worked with only some of the changes from 2.1.

[SpookyGhost]

All tanks now have 3 combos in their rotation, WAR is not that much more complicated. And the additionnal GCD for Damage and/or Mitigation is not a big deal and helps them recover TP. You could say, that PLD has also some GCD to manage if he wants to stun or use Shield Swipe.

WAR is more complicated.

Wrath/Abandon, the main mechanic of WAR, is based on certain GCDs (and some oGCDs). Skull Sunder, Butcher's Block, Maim, Storm's Eye, Storm's Path, Vengeance, Berserk, and Raw Intuition.

To fully maximize both DPS and mitigation you have to literally know exactly what GCD you will press every ~2.5s of the fight. If you slack on one GCD, now your IB is going to be one GCD later, or your Unchained, or you won't get your triple Fell Cleave, etc. etc. I don't know which tank you play, but if you ever MTed T13 when it was still relevant you'd notice that there is an incredibly careful dance to mitigate every Flare Breath, to mitigate every Flatten, and to use Unchained optimally.

Playing WAR to it's fullest extent is not as easy as PLD and DRK. Most people like to pretend that because PLD has 3 combos now, it's just as hard as WAR! Nah. We're out here working for this mitigation, for this damage, we have to learn the fight so intrinsically that it is etched into our brain. I have every single GCD I press in A1S mapped out to maximize my time in Deliverance, to have Unchained up to then build 5 stacks just in time for the cleave + tank buster, to then go back into Deliverance and have Path up every time it's needed but using BB when I can afford exactly 11 GCDs without it... WAR tanking isn't a walk in the park.

I know that all sounds like "WAR's the hardest therefore should be the best", but I don't believe that. Balancing around difficulty doesn't work out because people will just bring the best players of the hardest jobs and exclude all the easy to play jobs. But pretending like PLD and DRK are just as hard is a bit foolish. I don't mean that to be offensive, most people have this assumption now that PLD has 3 combo paths, but man... I did not put all my effort into learning every intricacy of this job to be compared to PLD, a job I played in 2.0 and randomly in every subsequent patch. I know what PLD is like, adding 2 more combos doesn't make that job any less mind-numbing.

I think Dark Mind is already a powerful skill to reduce magical damage, and DRK can drain life back with DA+Soul Eater. So, they don't have constant mitigation but constant self-healing (And I'm pretty sure they're close in terms of eHP)

I agree that Dark Mind is powerful, but I don't think it's powerful enough. I don't play DRK, though, so I am speaking out of line a bit - if you play DRK then I'm willing to believe it's as good as a shield. DA + Soul Eater, though, while a good HP regeneration isn't the equivalent of blocking an attack. You'll usually end up overhealing yourself (which means part or all of it is worthless) and when you don't, heals were coming anyway and now those are overhealing you. It's a similar situation to when WAR's IB was just a large heal and there's a reason that's been changed. Again, though, don't play DRK so might be wrong.

The problem with the "in-between" is when it's far enough. In magical figths, PLD really lacks mitigation. In physical fights, DRK lacks mitigation. But, either in magical of physical, having Inner Beast so often gives WAR sufficient mitigation to be MT all the time. And when mitigation is "sufficient", anything more quickly becomes a waste.

Yes, a DPS increase is a simple solution, but it bugs me to make all tanks more and more similar. I'd really like some adjustment that really change the strat between each tank.
That's why I suggested something to make WAR manage fights very differently.

When I look at WAR in 2.0 it had absolutely no mitigation, and no permanent healing boost. That was clearly not enough to survive content because of the damage scaling. But maybe it could have worked with only some of the changes from 2.1.

This is less a problem with WAR and more a problem with the fights themselves. Currently, outside of A4S possibly, no fight in Savage warrants PLD or DRK's mitigation over WAR's DPS output. If the damage was higher to showcase WAR's in-between mitigation and therefore warrant the higher mitigation of PLD/DRK then each job's roles would be more apparent. For DPS check fights with high damage, you'd bring a WAR as OT. For DPS check fights with lower damage (or more spread out damage), you'd bring a WAR as MT. For fights with heavy mitigation checks, you'd bring a DRK + PLD. And with gear, all 3 tanks would be able to do all of that.

I think 2.0 WAR could've worked with HP returned converting into shields rather than simply being an HP absorb, but they just decided to homogenize WAR with PLD. I don't think reverting everything back and making changes from there is the solution, though. We should work with what we've got and not make too many drastic changes. Give all the tanks an Eye debuff, give PLD some extra DPS, things would be a lot more even and you could use any comp without feeling the need to have a WAR or w/e.

[Reynhart]

Wrath/Abandon, the main mechanic of WAR, is based on certain GCDs (and some oGCDs). Skull Sunder, Butcher's Block, Maim, Storm's Eye, Storm's Path, Vengeance, Berserk, and Raw Intuition.

They're based on your combos, mainly, it's not like jump into hoops to steadily built them.

To fully maximize both DPS and mitigation you have to literally know exactly what GCD you will press every ~2.5s of the fight.

To fully maxmize DPS as PLD, you have to think when you can stance dance properly. Because stance dancing delay your next GCD and interrupt combos. For DRK, you also have to think of your MP cost, of the skills you gain or lose in each stance.
I have the feeling that WAR like to think PLD and DRK will just Tank stance and repeat their combo while WAR is the only one who need to maximize its DPS. Besides, when MTing, PLD needs to switch between it's three combos constantly. Since WAR can't maintain all of its buff/debuff, while doing it's more powerful combo, you don't have to worry about that.
Let's don't forget that DRK is also a lot "faster" to play with a lot more CD skill.

I agree that Dark Mind is powerful, but I don't think it's powerful enough. I don't play DRK, though, so I am speaking out of line a bit

I haven't tried Alex Savage yet, but for all the rest Dark Mind is really useful, and a so "short" cooldown means that you'll usually stack it on top of one of your other CD.

DA + Soul Eater, though, while a good HP regeneration isn't the equivalent of blocking an attack.

If terms of overall damage taken, it's close. If you take 4000 after 20% reduction from block, it's really close to taking 5000 damage then leeching 1000.

You'll usually end up overhealing yourself (which means part or all of it is worthless) and when you don't, heals were coming anyway and now those are overhealing you.

Not really. Healers don't jump on you as soon as you lose a few thousands HP, so DA+Soul Eater will actually delay the "threshold" for when they need to pop a strong heal.
The problem with previous Inner Beast is that WAR did lose HP at a faster rate and only received really enhanced healing while Infuriated.

This is less a problem with WAR and more a problem with the fights themselves.

Of course, we have no personal beef with WARs. But the design and the tank meta favors them most, and we don't see the meta changing in another direction for now.

I think 2.0 WAR could've worked with HP returned converting into shields rather than simply being an HP absorb, but they just decided to homogenize WAR with PLD.

I also think previous Inner Beast would work wonder with the level 60. Our damage increased far more than our HP, so the scaling is much better. And with it, WAR would be more of a reactive tank than proactive, which, IMO, fits the job better, still helps it survive fights in the long run, but makes it less effective to eat several tankbusters, which would force some tank swaps.

[Phoenicia]

Snip.

Nothing against you, but I think you honestly never main tanked raids as a warrior.

Warrior's GCD to GCD decisions are a bit more complicated than the rotate-the-3-combos-you-have-and-you're-set mentality PLD has.

Every Fracture used is a wrath/abandon stack you haven't built in the next 2.5s. Every FC you use is an IB you aren't gonna use. When you decide to use Unchained, you have to make sure you have enough time (17.5 seconds) to build wrath back up for IB before the buster is coming. Balancing the mitigation while doing the maximum DPS allowed on WAR is complicated. I will ignore the whole situationality of WAR's 3 combos because you end up using only 2.

For PLD, you have 3 combos you rotate alternatively! It really is down to GB > RoH > RA in that order. You may interchange them or replace one for another entirely but that's it. It has 1 optimal use that is irrelevant of the situation. Whatever combos you use do not affect how your other CDs offensively or defensively work. You can use your combos or not use them at all, as long as you press Rampart before the buster you're fine! And as I said, for DPS, you have 1 optimal rotation of GB > RoH > RA.

DRK is the same as PLD in that however it works its combos, it doesn't affect how their CDs work with the exception of Dark Mind (and lolDarkDance). But even then, Dark Mind can still work if you mess up your Dark Arts. You can still use Dark Mind for 15% mitigation, yes it's not 30%, but it's mitigation. All of the 6 oGCDs you have as DRK are just added DPS. They all come down to "if it's up, press". With the exception of C&S, any oGCD the DRK has is a direct DPS increase with no impact on defense.

If a WAR used Unchained or mistimed IB and Infuriate isn't up or even locked itself with the wrong GCD, that's a fully unmitigated hit. And if you wanna say you can use a CD, both DRK and WAR stack CDs with DM/IB. DRK still loses less. PLD has no such situation.

That's the whole point of complication that SpookyGhost and any WAR player refers to.

Now for stance dancing, PLD is clunky, not complicated. All the planning PLD has to do is "Finish this combo before I switch". If you want to, you can drop Shield Oath (just like Grit), finish your combo, then pop Sword Oath. None of the three tanks have difficult stance dancing mechanics. But out of the three tanks, the most impactful stance dancing comes to WAR because it loses/gains abilities.

I agree with you Dark Mind is powerful because of its short CD. It can either:
1- Be stacked with other CDs for more oomf on magic damage mitigation.
2- Fill in gaps before and between the other CDs if there is a hail of magic busters (Bismark Ex serpents!)

Soul Eater is there to alleviate the lack of passive mitigation from the shield. It helps by complementing the regen effects on you. So no, Soul Eater isn't translated into overhealing. (This is directed at SpookyGhost )

The problem with the old Inner Beast is the whole old WAR kit, not the scaling. WAR had to choose between more healing received or just healing received? lol... It was a joke. WAR had no means to survive big damage. Berserked, WAR could heal for about 2.8k HP out of its 6.2k at ilv90. That's almost 50% of its HP. But it doesn't matter how much you can heal with IB if you can't survive Death Sentence that could sometimes hit for 7k.

As for proactive vs reactive, that's personal opinion. I'd like to have the option for both, to proactively mitigate damage and then react according to how situations go.

[Reynhart]

Every Shield Swipe proc is a delay in GCD, can be a DPS increase or decrease depending if you spread your combo on several targets or if you have the time to finish your combo.
Every Stun can be a bit too late if the casting bar is short and your GCD is on.
Every stance change is a reset to your combo, meaning that your DoT and RoH will fall.
You need to think your cooldown rotation to match the frequence of tank busters so that you'll have one ready each time.
You'll need to follow the pattern of attacks to cast Clemency (even as a main tank) without being interrupted.

As for Dark Arts, it costs a lot of MP. Would you use it on each Dark Passenger, each Dark Mind, each Soul Eater and some Power Slash ? Or even with Adyssal Drain ? Do you need Carve and Spit to gain MP or do damage ?
Grit prevents you from using Blood Weapon, Darkside is needed to use several skills, and Soul Eater only heals you with Grit. You have plenty of things to think about if you want to max out DRK.
In fact, I'm pretty sure very few people had already managed to "perfect" DRK's gameplay.

Sorry, but stance dancing on WAR is still the more forgiving, just because it converts Wrath to Abandon and back, meaning you can prepare your damage in tank stance, and strike immediatly in DPS stance.

Yes, WAR's previous entire toolkit was far too behind. No mitigation skill, no oh-shit button and a tank stance which was massively behind the PLD.

I haven't done T5 as a WAR, but I suppose people didn't expect tank swaps, so WAR was in a really bad spot. With Vengeance and tank swapping (On top of Stoneskin and Adloquium), I'm sure it would have been perfectly viable.

Yes, "proactive vs reactive" is a personal opinion. It's just that WAR had Thrill Of Battle from the start, and Defiance is clearly a reactive skill, so I think it'd a more "coherent" toolkit.
And you'd still keep Vengeance and Raw Intuitionn which are proactive.

What would be better for WAR, though (Yes, some ideas to make WAR even better) is for WAR skills to not be "locked" behind Defiance/Deliverance. I'd like every Wrath/Andon skill to work like Equilibrium.
For example, under Defiance, Inner Beast would heal you, and under Deliverance, it would basically become Fell Cleave by gaining potency. This would allow WAR's toolkit to have the same number of skills than others job, and more room to make more interesting skill...because, let's be honest, Steel Cyclone and Decimate could be the same skill.

Wrath/Abadon could also be fused and only give a different buff depending on stance, since nothing gives specifically one or the other.

And again, lorewise, your Inner Beast is something that makes you unleash your rage to kill everything and very difficult to control. In-game, the only thing that makes WAR laugh maniacally is spamming Fell Cleave

[Phoenicia]

Every Shield Swipe proc is a delay in GCD, can be a DPS increase or decrease depending if you spread your combo on several targets or if you have the time to finish your combo.
Every Stun can be a bit too late if the casting bar is short and your GCD is on.
Every stance change is a reset to your combo, meaning that your DoT and RoH will fall.
You need to think your cooldown rotation to match the frequence of tank busters so that you'll have one ready each time.
You'll need to follow the pattern of attacks to cast Clemency (even as a main tank) without being interrupted.

I would agree with you if any of these scenarios were relevant or vital to your survival. They also have the following misconceptions:
- Doing your three combos, your GB and RoH are actually clipped by at least 1 GCD before they fall off. So you can Shield Swipe or change stances with a benefiting impact on DoT/Debuff timers.
- Since when was your stun relevant to raids? You can't bring something as irrelevant as this. And when your stun DOES work, it's 6s of 100% mitigation (similar to Hallowed Ground!!!). It is the longest stun in the game! Can be repeated with a DR for a total of 10s of stunned target!!
- Stance change is 1 GCD, plenty of time to refresh DoT/Debuff.
- WAR and DRK also have to consider their CD rotations as well. It's not just IB.
- You are not a self-healing tank, you are a pure mitigation tank. If you do manage to cast Clemency, you become ahead of WAR in terms of damage mitigated and healed. So I do not see the minus in here.

Are we grasping at straws here? I mean really?

As for Dark Arts, it costs a lot of MP. Would you use it on each Dark Passenger, each Dark Mind, each Soul Eater and some Power Slash ? Or even with Adyssal Drain ? Do you need Carve and Spit to gain MP or do damage ?
Grit prevents you from using Blood Weapon, Darkside is needed to use several skills, and Soul Eater only heals you with Grit. You have plenty of things to think about if you want to max out DRK.
In fact, I'm pretty sure very few people had already managed to "perfect" DRK's gameplay.

Again, none of these impact your defensively. The core mechanic of DRK is that you have only so much MP to use Dark Arts 4 or 5 times a minute. WAR can't even have enough Wrath/Abandon for 5 skills a minute! You choose which skills to boost based on situations. 9/10 times you will unload DAs for more DPS. What you are talking about is just integrating Dark Arts into the basic skills to achieve "perfect" DRK gameplay. Again, are you grasping at straws to make DRK sound difficult?

Sorry, but stance dancing on WAR is still the more forgiving, just because it converts Wrath to Abandon and back, meaning you can prepare your damage in tank stance, and strike immediatly in DPS stance.

So WAR losing Inner Beast is forgiving when the other two tanks keep all their defensive toolkit. It is also forgiving because it is the only one that locks you out for 10 seconds. Please.

It converting Wrath/Abandon is just a side effect. DRK keeps the rest of its MP when it turns on Grit and loses no MP when it turns it off. Why should WAR lose all its resources? It's already paying for the stance change by losing access to abilities and getting locked out for 10s.

Yes, WAR's previous entire toolkit was far too behind. No mitigation skill, no oh-shit button and a tank stance which was massively behind the PLD.

I haven't done T5 as a WAR, but I suppose people didn't expect tank swaps, so WAR was in a really bad spot. With Vengeance and tank swapping (On top of Stoneskin and Adloquium), I'm sure it would have been perfectly viable.

You do know Vengeance reducing damage by 30% was a 2.1 thing, right? Before 2.1 it was almost impossible for WAR to solo tank T5. But it was done with swaps. ShinRa (my FC at the time and Phoenix Server first T5) did T5 with swaps even after 2.1 came out.

WAR became the "better" solo tank for almost any encounter after 2.1.

Yes, "proactive vs reactive" is a personal opinion. It's just that WAR had Thrill Of Battle from the start, and Defiance is clearly a reactive skill, so I think it'd a more "coherent" toolkit.
And you'd still keep Vengeance and Raw Intuitionn which are proactive.

Thrill of Battle is meant to be used proactively before you receive the damage. It gives a 20% of your max HP as a buffer. Using it as a reactive heal is the wrong way to do it.

Defiance is useless if you're not at max HP or aren't receiving the heal. It has a more proactive nature than reactive.

Only reactive ability in the old WAR toolkit was Inner Beast which you used after big bursts to refill HP faster.

[Reynhart]

I would agree with you if any of these scenarios were relevant or vital to your survival.

Wow, wow, slow down. Nothing tied to Deliverance is "vital" to your survival. What you mentionned is how to push WAR in both mitigation AND dps.

- Doing your three combos, your GB and RoH are refreshed at least 1 GCD before they fall off. So you can Shield Swipe or change stances with no impact on DoT/Debuff timers.

On my PLD i184, I have 555 skill speed, which put my GCD at 2.42s. When I do RoH > GB > RA, STR Down falls during my next RoH and DoT is refreshed at 1s. So, another GCD and each would fall.

- You are not a self-healing tank, you are a pure mitigation tank.

Actually, the design team seems to disagree with you when they gave us Clemency...and PLD is still the one supposed to have knowledge of conjuring skill, mainly healing. And it's not like PLD's concept included healing spells in almost every FF entry.

Again, none of these impact your defensively.

Again, we're talking about pushing your job, not leisurely surviving encouters.

So WAR losing Inner Beast is forgiving when the other two tanks keep all their defensive toolkit.

Well, yes, because defense is supposed to be their specialty, and not WAR's...

It is also forgiving because it is the only one that locks you out for 10 seconds. Please.

Well, you don't stance dance on PLD or DRK for less than 10s too, it would be a DPS loss.

It converting Wrath/Abandon is just a side effect. DRK keeps the rest of its MP when it turns on Grit and loses no MP when it turns it off. Why should WAR lose all its resources?

Yeah, the "rest" of its MP...MP that are used for for a whole bunch of other skills and constantly drained. Ok, let WAR lose 1 stack. If would be enough to change stance dancing.

You do know Vengeance reducing damage by 30% was a 2.1 thing, right?

Yes, I know. And I specifically said to keep Vengeance as it is now. And with THAT Vengeance, T5 with swap tank "would have been" perfectly viable.

Defiance is useless if you're not at max HP or aren't receiving the heal. It has a more proactive nature than reactive.

Well, Defiance being useless "before" the damage is exatcly what a reactive skill heal. The major boost of Defiance is how it helps healing the WAR after he receives damage.
For example, if you don't have Defiance before the hit and put it on just after, it will help recovering from this hit with the healing boost. Thus, reactive.
Do the same with Grit or Shield Oath, you'd have taken the full damage and it doesn't help you recover from hit. Thus, proactive.