On the lack of humanity in our community.

[YukariOro]

You're confusing depression (a medical condition) with sadness (an emotion).

So you're saying I'm not feeling an emotion when I feel depressed, and because I have a medical condition that can affect my moods, that I can't feel depressed over other things, or experience the emotion? Just because I have a medical condition that affects my emotions doesn't mean I lack emotion, and specifically that emotion, which is what you are seeming to imply. Therefore, I'm sorry, but your logic is flawed.

Dear gods, calm down.
Pretty much every psychiatrist/psychologist would disagree with you.
Including my own.

Depression is a horrible affliction that can destroy people's lives and take them away.

It is the purest incarnation of 'bad'.

You're completely misunderstanding what I was saying. What you're calling bad is the impact the emotion if not properly dealt with can have. We are talking about two different things entirely. You talking about the effects and actions of someone how someone who is depressed behaves, while I am talking about the trigger, the initial feeling depression, long before any action, good or bad, is taken. Cause and effect; two entirely different things.

I have bipolar type II, which is mainly depression 90% of the time, with maybe 10% hypomania. I spend most of my time depressed, I know very well the negative impact that depression can have on someone as a result, as it has greatly affected and limited my life at times. What you're not understanding about my comment however, is that I'm saying the emotion itself is not bad. How one copes with the emotion, or fails to cope with the emotion, however can be bad. That I definitely am not arguing with, and have experienced it within myself and have worked to adjust and improve.

It's all about coping skills, but labeling something so subjective bad or good, I've found does more harm than good. I used to start feeling bad because I was depressed. How dare I be depressed, I must be a horrid, bad person to feel such an awful emotion, I must get rid of the emotion. Once I grew to accept that it was just an emotion I had to express and deal with and learn to cope with better, that in of itself the emotion wasn't bad, but how I acted because of that emotion that mattered more, well it made a huge difference and I stopped beating myself upside the head because of feeling a so-called negative emotion. What was so much more damaging to me, wasn't the feeling of depression, but the feeling that I should be ashamed for feeling depressed to begin with. I didn't like that and ever since I adopted this approach and outlook on depression, I find feeling depressed much easier to cope with.

Emotions themselves are neutral, neither good nor bad. It's when and how we act out those emotions or don't act them out, that determines how good, bad, or evil they are.

And yes, I'm aware that the Western medical field field views depression as something bad, but I gotta tell you, it was reading up and researching how some Eastern cultures deal with depression and learning how they don't treat the emotion itself as something bad, that changed my impression of depression. Those that view depression in this more neutral way seem to be able to better cope with it at a result and that made me come accept that it was okay to feel depressed sometimes.

Feeling depressed didn't and doesn't make me a bad person, and that was the message I was getting from Western medicine. And that message was that if I was depressed I was doing something bad, and can really wreck havoc on someone's self-esteem, let me tell you. I'm already feeling bad, because I feel depressed, and now I'm being told I'm bad to feel depressed at that, which made me even more depressed. What a double-whammy.

So, just because Western Medicine doesn't agree with my outlook, doesn't make them right. At one point Western medicine insisted bleeding people made them better too. Things change, and Western medicine sometimes is wrong.

Anyhow, arguing whether depression is bad or good was not the original intent of this thread, and I'd hate to see the subject matter get any further off-track. I've had my say, so I'm going to stop talking about depression, good or bad. =)

[Maero]

Great post OP and while i cannot contribute anything much to this post i will say i know of a few Astrologians that do raid in Savage. I guess the class itself is perceived as more of a support class, a healer class in between sch and whm from what i am understanding but all my encounters with astros they seemed strong. I do not have my astro fully levelled so do not yet understand it however.
Players are ok to put up what they want in pf for instance but have seen astrologian left out in some. As for selling runs well sorry but i have never believed in people who sell and also players that buy runs. It just seems wrong to me, then again it could explain some players that are god awful with the title "Final Witness", lol

[YukariOro]

My fc has a really good AST and we've never once told him he can't do high end content with us. I think the biggest problem is, some people play the job poorly, and sadly it reflects badly on those who play it well. I know while I have been leveling AST, I often get comments about how bad AST is when I first enter a dungeon, only to be told at the end how great I am. I think this is the case for all jobs, some who are just bad at the role, unfortunately sour it to some degree for those who are great at the role.

[Kosmos992k]

@OP

I sympathize with your post and recognize a lot of things in your post. I think the best approach to this, and any other game is to figure out what you want, why you play and what you enjoy the most; combine the answers to these questions, and make it your focus. Most of all, constantly remember that there are real, living, breathing, and FEELING, people behind the characters we see and interact with, *and* treat those people with the respect that we all deserve. It sounds like you have come to similar conclusions.

Without wanting to use labels too much, although I have used them in the past, there are definitely two communities in this game that are clearly defined and different from each other - hard core raiders and so-called casuals. There is a lot of middle ground where players who are not entirely one or the other fit, however in my experience, to the hardcore raiders in the game, you are either a raider or you are not, there are only two groups of player. To a raider, if you are not up to their standard, you are a liability and you should leave. In my experience, that group of players (hardcore raiders) displays a distinct lack of patience and humanity because they see players who are not up to their standard as a liability and a hindrance to their progress.

It's true that Casual players who talk in general terms about raiders are not exactly helpful either, the can be (and I have been myself) dismissive of raiders. Not helpful, but not entirely personal either. Talking about a group in general doesn't help much, but it's not the same as telling a player who fails to meet some arbitrary standard that they are a bad player and should do something else, git gud or leave. Now, the thing is, generalizations are often easy to disprove with a single anecdotal account, but they exist for a reason.

What I have found though is that the general mood of the 'casual' community is much less confrontational and inhumane than the raider group. I think this has to do with the fact that a) the kind of content attempted is not so finely balanced that a single mistake by one causes a wipe followed by rage; and b) there is much less dependence on others for personal progression; and c) progression is seen as secondary to enjoying the game. Because of this, people don't mind if your job is sub-optimal compared to another, or if your rotation is imperfect, or if you are just not as quick reacting as others. They care that you try and are fun to be around.

Before any raiders say that's true of raiders as well, it is, but it's not. It's true for as long as you are not a liability, and then it goes out the window. My own personal experience and that of many friends who regularly raid still, or who exited that community after one to many rages has revealed this truth.

Now, regarding this topic and the many replies. I find it utterly fascinating that some people reply in ways that 100% confirm the OP's general meaning, and then act like the OP is in the wrong, or is some kind of fragile special snowflake. The irony is that the inhumanity and intolerance of your reply absolutely confirms what the OP says, and utterly invalidates your suggested course of action.

I would like to address one topic of debate that has been wrenched open seemingly in an attempt to discredit, or perhaps discourage, the OP. Depression. People, there are so many shades of depression and conditions that present as depression, trying to suggest tranquilizers as a solution is grossly insulting. Of all the players I know in this game, I'd say that approximately 50% (+/- 10%) are depressed to some degree or another. It may be mild and passing or clinical and severe, the person may/may not need medication to assist them, and they may/may not take it.

But you know what, the *truth* is that what matters is how I and others treat them, not whether they are depressed or whether they are taking medication. How they are treated by others is what actually matters and there is no excusing mistreating other players. It's inexcusable to do so, and worse to turn around and say that the person who has been mistreated should take some medication to help. No, absolutely not.

What we're really talking about here, this mistreatment, disrespect, or treating people in an inhumane manner really boils down to varying forms and degrees of bullying. To suggest that someone should take a medication as a counter measure to bullying is offensive and insulting to the victim and it excuses the bullying and those who perpetrate it.

There are only three ways to deal with bullying, stop it at the source; failing that remove the source; or else remove the victim from the environment where the bullying is taking place if no other solution is viable.

Let's not beat about the bush here though. Bullying is wrong in ever way it can be, and it must be opposed and eradicated. Unfortunately, bullying is also pervasive in the gaming community, and in certain quarters it's seen as an acceptable way of behaving, and those unable to cope are weaklings and should get out. I'm sorry folks, but that mentality, and the community which tolerates or even encourages it is simply wrong. It needs to stop.

However, realistically affecting that kind of change is beyond the scope of a single player, game or developer. It's up to the community as a whole to change things, and if the community lacks the will or ability to do so, the only viable solution is to segregate yourself from that part f the community an find a batter way forward with players who share your point of view and sensibility.

Personally I have long advocated stepping off the gear treadmill, not worrying about progression, playing for fun, not farming or grinding, talking to fellow players, and measuring your 'progress' against the story alone, not the top tier content, and certainly not the raiding groups who have it on farm already. Once you make that change, you realize that in an MMORPG the journey is far, far more important than the destination. So enjoy the scenery, smell the roses, enjoy the people and make some fond memories for yourself.

To every cynical person who scoffs at the idea that players are people and we should treat them with respect, or that you can form social or emotional bonds in a game; you're so very wrong, and you're missing out on the best part of MMORPGs - the humanity of the players you meet. Without that humanity, you might as well be playing a single player game.

In short, I agree and sympathize with the OP. People should be nicer to each other, stop bullying and remember that this is a game and games are ment to be fun.

first world problems

What an utterly asinine reply. I was not aware that the emotional impact of the mistreatment of others was limited to the 'first world'. I though that it was more clearly a part of the human condition and pretty much universal to humanity. But, what do I know, I'm only human.

I think what the OP is getting at is how the gaming community these days treat others around them as if they're only tools to an end and that they aren't actual people behind that screen. It does dehumanize in a sense because if you don't remember the fact that you're interacting with another actual person you tend to have the general attitude of today's endgame players that say and do things they wouldn't normally to one they acknowledged as another human being. It's ok to want an optimal party, it's ok to want to clear content quickly and efficiently, and it's ok to want to maximize your time online. However it's not ok to just unload on people and break bonds built over stupid things like virtual items and the like. Over the years it's been drifting toward the point where people start viewing others as nothing more than NPCs used to further their goals. If that doesn't seem to be a loss in the human aspect then I'm not sure what does.

Indeed.

No, actually, it does contribute directly to gil-buying, just like extremely overpriced goods in the market do. Unless your price for selling clears is reasonable (I've never seen a reasonable price offered), it does contribute to gil-buying because the only way the people who can't clear it can afford to buy the clear is by buying gil. Same problem with ridiculously priced crafted goods: If you have the money to buy it without buying gil, that most likely means you can make it yourself. So the only people who would need to buy it would be those who can't afford it... and thus buy gil.

Well said, and 110% agreed.

Exactly, which is why you shouldn't allow yourself to be so vulnerable to depression.

Someone else commented that this was a "pretty ignorant statement", and I agree with them. Your statement implies that depression is something that you can control and/avoid. It's not, and based on your other posts you should already know that. However you seem to me to have convinced yourself that your coping mechanisms are somehow able to protect you from depression. Even if that is true for you, that doesn't make it true for *anyone* else. There are many, many forms of depression and many ways for it to express itself. Bipolar disorder is one of those. Again though, you should know already that something that presents a solution, or at least improvement to one person will not necessarily help another since every person is different and each person's depression is unique to them, even if you share the same diagnosis. Anti-depressants help some, not others, the same medication may be miraculous to one, and treacherous to another, cognitive therapy could be curative to one, and drive others into a deeper state. Some depression is primarily based on biochemistry, and some based on stress, life circumstance, environment, behavior and/or history.

Correction
My original reply incorrectly made it seem that Adire had suggested the use of tranquilizers. In fact they did not, Ceodore on the other hand DID.

Seriously, calm down. Take a Xanax or Valium or something.

Suggesting that someone who is depressed should take tranquilizers misses the mark by several light years.

[Assirra]

My fc has a really good AST and we've never once told him he can't do high end content with us. I think the biggest problem is, some people play the job poorly, and sadly it reflects badly on those who play it well. I know while I have been leveling AST, I often get comments about how bad AST is when I first enter a dungeon, only to be told at the end how great I am. I think this is the case for all jobs, some who are just bad at the role, unfortunately sour it to some degree for those who are great at the role.

As much as i want this to be true, you cannot deny the lack of healing abilities AST got in trade for an rng buff system that selene can do better most of the time.

[YukariOro]

I'm not denying your point, that AST definitely needs some buffing. But then again, I mained Red Mage as healer in FFXI for a long time, it had the smallest mp pool and required a lot of multitasking to play well. I managed it, though later I changed to white mage simply because I hated having no down time and coming away regularly with migraines after concentrating so much on playing Red Mage healer. That said, red mage was an awesome healer, in spite of its limitations, and there were many. I think I'm approaching AST in much the same mindset, trying to make the most of what AST has. Just because it's a weak class, doesn't mean it can't be played well, just as Red Mage in XI was the weakest healer, but still healed admirably well when played by a good player.

That said, I have no intentions of switching to AST from Scholar. I'm mainly leveling mine so that when I'm paired with an AST, I know their strengths and weaknesses and can compensate when I'm on Scholar, which I dearly love.

[Hydrium]

This is some top tier angst for a video game.

I'll just leave this here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK5dHqXCLbo

[Ashkendor]

So you're saying I'm not feeling an emotion when I feel depressed, and because I have a medical condition that can affect my moods, that I can't feel depressed over other things, or experience the emotion? I'm sorry, but your logic is flawed. Just because I have a medical condition that affects my emotions doesn't mean I lack emotion, and specifically that emotion, which is what you are seeming to imply.

That's not what I'm implying at all. You said that depression itself is a "natural human emotion" and that it is "not a bad thing". Let's clear something up here real quick. Depressed people are sad, but not all sad people are depressed. Clinical depression is not a natural thing. It is the result of a chemical imbalance in the brain which causes feelings of sadness and dejection often for no reason at all. It is certainly not a good thing. Depression also tends to cause self-esteem issues. Many people that have depression feel as though they have no control over their own emotions. I can tell you from experience that being so angry you hit/break things or feeling so completely desolate that you can't even get out of bed in the morning are very scary things. Feeling the emotion (sadness) does not mean that you suffer from the rest of what the medical condition (depression) brings to the table.

Here's a nice collection of graphs to illustrate the difference.

[Hydrium]

snip

They will never understand because they aren't trying to. They don't understand that feeling sad is different from laying in your bed for 6 months straight because you don't have the energy to even get out of said bed. They think that just because they felt a sad that they are depressed and it's absolutely hilarious and tragic at the same time because it undermines the struggle that anyone who actually has depression is going through which leads everyone to tell them "Oh it's in your head, just cheer up!"

[YukariOro]

Someone else commented that this was a "pretty ignorant statement", and I agree with them. Your statement implies that depression is something that you can control and/avoid. It's not, and based on your other posts you should already know that. However you seem to me to have convinced yourself that your coping mechanisms are somehow able to protect you from depression. Even if that is true for you, that doesn't make it true for *anyone* else. There are many, many forms of depression and many ways for it to express itself. Bipolar disorder is one of those. Again though, you should know already that something that presents a solution, or at least improvement to one person will not necessarily help another since every person is different and each person's depression is unique to them, even if you share the same diagnosis. Anti-depressants help some, not others, the same medication may be miraculous to one, and treacherous to another, cognitive therapy could be curative to one, and drive others into a deeper state. Some depression is primarily based on biochemistry, and some based on stress, life circumstance, environment, behavior and/or history. Suggesting that someone who is depressed should take tranquilizers misses the mark by several light years.

So true, being bipolar type II, I often can't change how I feel, but I can change how I act and react because of how I feel and have worked hard to do so. And so true on how treatments differ, for example, anti-depressants are among the worst things someone with bipolar can take, and can actually make them sicker. There have been studies down however, that find that cognitive therapy actually can help a bipolar patient improve, whether they are on medicine or not, and I personally have found this to be true in my case.

lol, I was gonna stop talking about depression, especially after some of these ignorant comments I've read and received, but yours was just too good and insightful not to reply to. =)

That's not what I'm implying at all. You said that depression itself is a "natural human emotion" and that it is "not a bad thing". Let's clear something up here real quick. Depressed people are sad, but not all sad people are depressed. Clinical depression is not a natural thing. It is the result of a chemical imbalance in the brain which causes feelings of sadness and dejection often for no reason at all. It is also certainly not a good thing. Depression also tends to cause self-esteem issues. Many people that have depression feel as though they have no control over their own emotions. I can tell you from experience that being so angry you hit/break things or feeling so completely desolate that you can't even get out of bed in the morning are very scary things. Feeling the emotion (sadness) does not mean that you suffer from the rest of what the medical condition (depression) brings to the table.

Here's a nice collection of graphs to illustrate the difference.

You are the only one who has used the term clinical depression. I certainly never used that phrase or addressed clinical depression at all, though I did mention I deal with bipolar depression myself, but that was not intended to address Clinical Depression. You are so intent on proving me wrong, that you're missing what I'm saying.

I suffer from Bipolar Type II depression, so why are you trying to educate me, when I already live with depression. I don't need you telling me what it's like or linking me graphs. (Though I have studied up extensively on Bipolar myself) I experience depression daily. I really don't think you have any clue how superior and condescending (not to mention ignorant) your attitude is coming across with this needless lecture, especially given that you're directing it towards someone who suffers from severe and debilitating depression and deals with it intimately, on a daily and hourly basis, as I do.

All those things you describe, those symptoms you listed, they're not just an idea or a concept to me, I actually live them. But because you seem to be on some kind of crusade to prove what depression really is, it appears to me that you never bothered to stop to see exactly who you were addressing your rebuttal to, the very type of person you're supposedly trying to defend with your aggressive comments. A person who deals daily with severe depression. Me. Good intentions or not, your actions seem to be misguided.

And if it works for me to think this way, and it does, then no, I am not wrong to think this way. For me it is a healthy approach and nothing you can say or do will convince me otherwise. For me this is a valid coping method, period. Simple as that.