Giving each job a second spec: would it work?

[Dhex]

I love the "Arcanist split spec. didn't work!" argument when almost every Savage Alexander group has a SCH - and SMN is widely considered the best DPS in the game atm.

[justinjarjar]

I love the "Arcanist split spec. didn't work!" argument when almost every Savage Alexander group has a SCH - and SMN is widely considered the best DPS in the game atm.

Devs didn't like the design and don't want to go that direction, is that good enough?
(not blaming op for bringing it up, just that there is a reason it most likely won't happen)

[Dhex]

Devs didn't like the design and don't want to go that direction, is that good enough?
(not blaming op for bringing it up, just that there is a reason it most likely won't happen)

Sorry but it seems to me the argument behind this changes any time it's brought up.

First it's "Arcanist was a failed experiment" except that the Jobs stemming from Arcanist are both very successful and exemplary in their roles.
Then the argument becomes "Well Devs don't like it" because it's extra work for them to balance stuff? Isn't that what they have to do any time the release anything new? Are all the jobs really on equal footing because last I checked there is still an optimum party setup...

So basically your argument is "We can't have this thing that you're asking for because I say it takes Devs time and effort to make that." To which I would respond - well duh. Anything we ask for takes time and effort to make - be it a minion, or cash shop mount, or anything else.

[justinjarjar]

Sorry but it seems to me the argument behind this changes any time it's brought up.

First it's "Arcanist was a failed experiment" except that the Jobs stemming from Arcanist are both very successful and exemplary in their roles.
Then the argument becomes "Well Devs don't like it" because it's extra work for them to balance stuff? Isn't that what they have to do any time the release anything new? Are all the jobs really on equal footing because last I checked there is still an optimum party setup...

So basically your argument is "We can't have this thing that your asking for because it takes Devs time and effort to make that." To which I would respond - well duh. Anything we ask for takes time and effort to make - be it a minion, or cash shop mount, or anything else.

no the devs are on record saying they did not like that direction. Completely different.

[Dhex]

no the devs are on record saying they did not like that direction. Completely different.

So if Devs decide they don't like something - even if players request more of it because it's successful from a functional and practical use standpoint (SCH/SMN) - they shouldn't consider it?

[Lemuel81]

I would rather see a job/subjob like FFXI but nothing like a talent tree like World of warcraft. If they ever did add say a talent tree like..world of warcraft. There probably would end up just being a cookie cutter build that everyone will follow or be demanded up (raid statics) so pretty pointless imo.

[justinjarjar]

So if Devs decide they don't like something - even if players request more of it because it's successful from a functional and practical use standpoint (SCH/SMN) - they shouldn't consider it?

Never said to not bring it up, but the OP asked would it work? The answer is the devs don't want to go that direction. You can clearly see that with the new jobs DRK, MCH, and AST going completely away from the class system, which is most likely how we will see new jobs (no one has explained to me why the new jobs are badly implemented). And this forum is split, so in that case the devs view point (which is final anyways) is going to be more important. If it was all yes best idea then maybe the devs are missing something, but it is not.

[Delily]

I love the "Arcanist split spec. didn't work!" argument when almost every Savage Alexander group has a SCH - and SMN is widely considered the best DPS in the game atm.

This demonstrates ignorance of the issue. The reason the designers don't like the split is because anytime the class's skills are modified, it will impact both jobs, which occupy 2 different roles. If they boost the potency of a DoT or of Ruin, suddenly SCH becomes the preferred healer because they are strong healers and now they're doing more damage. In effect, the sch hampers the ability of the team to balance the smn with other damage roles.

[Delily]

So if Devs decide they don't like something - even if players request more of it because it's successful from a functional and practical use standpoint (SCH/SMN) - they shouldn't consider it?

Short answer, yes, because players and designers have 2 different definitions of what's successful, and the designers are able to accurately measure how well a change is doing.

[Reynhart]

FFXI's problem is that the jobs did not have well defined roles. Ninjas are considered tanks, but they were originally intended to be damage. Summoners are a mixed bag. The trinity system may seem constrictive, but it sets limits on the expectations and abilities of the job and gives the designers the freedom within those limits.

I don't understand how you could create a spell that negates damage and don't even consider how useful it could be for a tank
Especially since, in early FFXI, the only thing you needed to keep aggro was a WAR subjob.

To answer the OP's question, no it wouldn't work. One spec would always perform better than the other, and the community would expect players to use that spec for content. As many have pointed out, FFXV version of skill trees and specs is the ability to switch your job at any time (outside of instanced content).

This is always the answer when customization is asked for...and I think it's actually not an issue. Like not all PT only use the absolute best tank, the absolute best DPS or the absolute best healer, people will take what they can.

Especially since most of content is played either with a Duty Finder where people don't know what the setup will be, or in static within the same company, where most people will take you with your job, because it's the thing you want to play. As for Party Finder, you'll have the option of joining who you want, and if you don't like the "only this job with this spec" mentality, you'll just join another party.

This demonstrates ignorance of the issue. The reason the designers don't like the split is because anytime the class's skills are modified, it will impact both jobs, which occupy 2 different roles.

As level cap increases, job actions would have taken a more important part of your skill list, so it wouldn't have been too hard to balance it. Or, like HW, did, classes skills could stop at level 50, so this is, again, not a real issue.