Please let BRDs use Empyrean Arrow and Iron Jaws outside of Wanderer's Minuet

[RiceisNice]

Hrm, I guess I need to level my MCH to try to get a proper understanding of how you feel about the stance. Your ideas for making WM different for BRD are interesting, yet it is ultimately SE who decides what would be the best course of action.

That's really the big factor to my problems with WM. When you boil it down, MCH and BRD more-or-less play the same under the influence of GB/WM. Except MCH can watch for their procs (not because its vital to their dps, but because they're designed to do so even with GB in mind), and while they have abilities that interact differently through their skills, they produce the same results with the same usage (ricochet and sidewinder for example) and doesn't serve too much to differentiate the two classes. At that point, I'm playing two similar classes but only one feels natural. If they had made one or the other focus on attack speed (more weaponskill per second at a reduced TP cost, versus more damage per weaponskill), it'd go a long way to differentiate the two classes in playstyle, in a similar sense of MNK/NIN versus DRG. It's just so much wasted potential when they made WM/GB carbon copies of each other (espesically when they didn't make ammo's interaction to MCH skills as they initially made it out to be.)

I welcome well thoguht out changes to classes. I welcome class design that encourages homogenization but still differentiates how they play. Only when it's well thought out and well executed though. Something like DWT for summoner works naturally with their aetherflow usage. BLM's enochian, while it adds on another layer of spell management, still works on the same concept of maintaining the perfect balance between umbral/astral for their mana:damage output. They could've made bard play differentially than machinist, or build upon how they played in 2.0. Instead, the cast times interfere with their 2.0 toolkit, is not reminiscent of their 2.0 counterpart, and shares the same concepts/baseline as machinist's gameplay.

[Mikedizzy]

I hit an almost 5k Sidwinder last night...I am liking the new Bard. I don't have any issues with moving and the 1.5 "charge time". I think they have made Bard more fun to play. Just my opinion but I really like it now.

[Velhart]

snip

Yea, which goes back to what I was saying earlier. Wanderer's Minuet is a more than welcome feature to BRD, but it definitely feels like it was tacked on instead of working it's way in smoothly. SE just needs to make some small tweaks to make it feel less clunky and it will be a very solid system for BRD. MCH it was easier because it was built up from a lv.60 mindset instead of lv.50 and adding onto it.

If a casting stance was only for MCH and not BRD, I am very sure SE would of made a system that would make it equally difficult for BRD still and people would be complaining about that. Which still makes me ask the question, do people hate WM, or the fact the easiest job in the game finally got a skill cap level comparable to other DPS? Mobility seems to be the popular argument, but anyone who is good at either job can move pretty well if they know the fight.

[Ketsuyame]

After hitting BRD56 and playing around for a bit, I wish I could use EA and IJ outside of WM. Then I would feel freer to stance dance.

No you wouldn't and you know it. Most bads would rejoice that the job is still faceroll and say screw WM all together. Stop asking for more handicaps and get how good WM actually is. And get BRD to 60 first before you start whining. I main BRD for my static and we're on A3 savage and I couldn't be happier.

And lastly it comes down to this; git gud.. Period.

[RiceisNice]

Yea, which goes back to what I was saying earlier. Wanderer's Minuet is a more than welcome feature to BRD, but it definitely feels like it was tacked on instead of working it's way in smoothly. SE just needs to make some small tweaks to make it feel less clunky and it will be a very solid system for BRD. MCH it was easier because it was built up from a lv.60 mindset instead of lv.50 and adding onto it.

If a casting stance was only for MCH and not BRD, I am very sure SE would of made a system that would make it equally difficult for BRD still and people would be complaining about that. Which still makes me ask the question, do people hate WM, or the fact the easiest job in the game finally got a skill cap level comparable to other DPS? Mobility seems to be the popular argument, but anyone who is good at either job can move pretty well if they know the fight.

It can be a casting stance, but with a different approach (attack speed versus damage for example) or have them interact differently with those cast times via different abilties (think summoner/blackmage). Ideally, both class brings the same things to the table (damage and regen), but they do so with different gameplay in mind. It boils dow nto both honestly. It feels like they slapped on WM onto bard (which functions exactly the same as MCH, making them both have a very similar baseground for dps), and at the same time, the cast times don't interact very well with what they had in 2.0. It works as far as numbers are concerned, but it's certainly messy honestly not too well thought when it comes to the two job comparisons. I'm not concerned with the difficulty or complexity (if magic was my thing, I'd probably enjoy blackmage) because honestly, the game could use a higher skill cap in execution to better differentiate from the people who just play their class, and those who excel at it (which WM/GB imo doesn't do that good job of if the only thing it's demanding out of you is standing still, not watching cooldowns or being reactive to procs, especially the latter since you can't be reactive to procs with those cast times)

In other words, you felt that SE just slapped it on to create parity between BRD and MCH? It did feel alien to me at first, but I guess I've gotten used to it already and play around with what I can do. The damage buff is nice, but I wouldn't mind something more creative while being well designed either. My arms are open to any change that comes BRD's way. It would be nice to see changes that compliment the 2.0 play style, but I don't mind what we have now since it at least keeps the job relevant. Despite what others may say, I see groups who are looking for BRDs--good ones at that--a lot of the time. This is usually the norm, but it looks more apparent after Heavensward.

More or less. Let's be honest, when we got previews on machinist being able to "stand still to charge their attacks for more damage" "use ammunition to boost certain abilities, as well as abilities that require ammo" and "provide support to the party", what was your impression on the kind of class? We have no mention of bards up until the job action trailers, in which they mentioned that WM would trade off auto attacks for cast times that do more damage, and not even a mention of gauss barrel on MCH during the liveletter or the trailer.

At that point, I had no idea what direction they were taking with both these classes. The end result was that they'd both play with 1.5 cast times, have oGCDs to weave, maintain a DoT and a buff, and honestly not much else to use or manage (not even ammo since it's only really worth using for 3 abilties on single target. Normally I wouldn't have problems with having abilties being copies of each other (like blunt arrow:head graze, or buffs such as FoF and raging strikes), but when you try to have a class play around a specific ability (in this case, GB and WM) that are functionally the same, you're essentially pigeon holing them into the same gameflow. Of course when they add something like WM/GB, it's going to feel alien, because it's introducing a different flow of combat to the class. Not that it's a bad thing, but what that difference is key which I feel that they failed to emphasize when taking into BRD and MCH's overall gameplay into consideration.

Imagine summoner got their version of astral/umbral for their post-50 moveset and their gameplay was oriented between balancing DPS and DPM (damage per mana), instead of maintaining a balance of mana and maximizing DWT output. For one thing, it doesn't orient very well because they already have aetherflow to replenish mana (and they'd utlimately would only use it in astral to prolong the time spent in it), and secondly, they'd start to play incredibly similar to blackmage minus the enochian. Or have dark knight have only straight mana costs on their cooldown/abilties rather than the concept of Darkside, now they play too closely to paladin, minus the stronger magic mitigation.

I really felt that there wasn't enough play testing done specifically bard and machinist, even to get player input (and htey probably could not spare the resource,s but it doens't change the fact that this is the result). Things like WM/GB being a damage loss unti level 60 (and still was for MCH) or the rapid fire bug, you have to wonder how these sort of design/numbers made it to the final release. And it isn't the first time that this sort of thing has happened (2.0 warrior and 2.4 DRG for example)

[Enkrateia]

Greetings, all!

You may have notice a vast swath of this thread has been excised. This was due to those posts turning from disagreements about the topic of this thread into something much less on topic. Please keep discussions about this topic focused on the topic itself, and not focusing on proving your point correct or trying to pick apart someone's argument. As always, remain civil, and sometimes it's just best to agree to disagree.

Should this topic go off topic again, the thread may be removed or closed, with further discussion prevented.

LGM Enkrateia

[Aiselia]

Greetings, all!

You may have notice a vast swath of this thread has been excised. This was due to those posts turning from disagreements about the topic of this thread into something much less on topic. Please keep discussions about this topic focused on the topic itself, and not focusing on proving your point correct or trying to pick apart someone's argument. As always, remain civil, and sometimes it's just best to agree to disagree.

Should this topic go off topic again, the thread may be removed or closed, with further discussion prevented.

LGM Enkrateia

Aw, and just when I was tightening the iron grasp of logic!

Alright, sorry. Guess it was becoming a mite heated.

[ganstream1]

Or why not just make WM like Monk's Fist of Fire?

That way:

-Empy n Iron Jaws can still be locked behind WM.
-AA is still off while WM is on.
-all skills can become instant cast again.
-Bards can move n shoot again.

(the same thing can be applied to MCH as well)

and make everyone happy (hopefully).

just my 2 cents.

[RinchanNau]

Then there would never be any point to turning it off. That sounds incredibly boring. The stance dancing to handle mechanics while maximizing DPS is fun.

[RiceisNice]

Or why not just make WM like Monk's Fist of Fire?

That way:

-Empy n Iron Jaws can still be locked behind WM.
-AA is still off while WM is on.
-all skills can become instant cast again.
-Bards can move n shoot again.

(the same thing can be applied to MCH as well)

and make everyone happy (hopefully).

just my 2 cents.

Then what's the point of ever leaving it off, if it's objectively a damage increase in all situations? I feel like you didn't read anything that was posted here at all and understand what sort of problems arise with using WM. That'd play exactly like 2.0 bard with 1 or 2 skills added, while every other class has evolved and expanded beyond their 2.0 tool kit.