Cleric Stance in PvP

[Mclyde]

Right now I can still hit 800+ gravity/malefic 2 with full int gear and commanders set, and also heal 1.1k aspected barrier, I only loose 300 healing but gain a lot of damage so I can actually do poke damage, I'm changing gear sets atm depending on situations, and if they keep this stuff up I'll just see how much int I can gem on the Wolve's den gear. At this rate to me Cleric was more punishing .___. now I don't need to stance dance at all barely, mainly thanks to 150 ilvl not scaling well with stat

i suppose having a special pvp gear with a lot of intel is a solution, yea.
But you're still only at 50% of your potential damage. 800 dmg with malefic 2, with the cost in mana.... outch

[Geologo]

I would be even up to a little INT implementation to pvp gear, like what they did in 2.x for giving a bit of accuracy to healers too, but it would be another lazy solution (even if more balanced that the actual remove CS only solution) because people could support a little during not healing time but without riquire any personal skill, instead if you have to manage CS and you pop it in the wrong moment as DPS I would be happy as hell to kill you.

Also, I don't know if it is only an Immortal Flame issue, but there is a huge Heales lack up to now in FL, any "give them a little DPS possibility" will make them a more attractive role.

[Fyce]

Imagine 6 black mage spamming aoe skill while the 8 whm are in cleric stance (very bad heals) and while 2 healer protect them.

*sigh*
You have no idea of what happened.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. JP servers were absolutly full of teams like that.

[Mclyde]

In this video we can see 7 healers fighting a team of 3 differents dps (melee+distant)+3 healer.
And it was pre 3.0.

Other things they didn't killed any of their ennemies. Even if we can see that the player is using cleric stance.
They just arrived to the Flag before the others and in number superiority.

I don't see any problem of balance in this scenario.

[Fyce]

Of course it's before 3.0, it was before the healer nerfs. That's what I'm talking about from the beginning.
I was just giving you the reason why they had to remove buff stacking and CS. But you still don't seem to understand.

Anyway, if you don't see why a team of "only" 7 healers standing on a point and who cannot be killed while being able to prevent anyone to get anywhere close to the point because of CS/Holy spam/Fluid Aura is a balance issue, I can't do anything for you.

To make it simple: no, you are not getting CS back. It caused balance issues and had to be removed, just like why SMN can't rez people in PvP.

[Mclyde]

I can't do anything for you

Just stay in this state of mind pleaz.

Come back when bad-faith will no longer make you reply with the same false arguments again & again.

A healer in cleric stance can't get the same dps as a Damage dealer of the same skill level (in astro if i do that i'm completely out of mp in no time = i can't heal). And a healer in cleric stance can only produce very bad heals. Since cleric stance can't be spam, there are no balance issue.

In other mmo, the heal and magical attack power depend on the same stat point. So in pvp, as a healer you don't even have to switch stance to be able to try to kick ass to a dps who decided to focus on you. You can just put your dot on this guy, and wait that he dies while healing yourself. If he's good he's still able to kill you if he didn't used his cd and stun in useless actions (=being good) like stunning to death one guy when you're 3 or 4 on him.
The fact that Healers was able to make some significant dps has never been considered as an issue for balance in those games (swtor for exemple).

You can't take in consideration the large number of damage dealer, in this specific game, who doesn't know at all their dps cycle, to determine the balance in pvp. Only the full potential of each class mean something.

In EVERY mmo there are video of premade doing pvp with a full team of this or that, and completely own the match. Like : "oh it's so impressive to destroy a pug team with your 8 synchronised doter ! You're so strong and gutsy guys..."
Whatever is the class this premade would have choose, they would have own the game... it's not an argument to nerf this class.

[RiceisNice]

...

It was a premade because...guess what, it was literally the best pre-made you can get at the time. HE even mentioned most Japanese teams did this, and whoever was in the video should be thankful that it was only white mages and that scholars weren't thrown into the mix. Even if they didn't kill off the other team, do they really have to? The objectives in secure and seize are to hold locations that give you points. And the point remains is that they're not dying ,even with focus targeting becasue of just how much heals is going out combined with how much damage they can actually pump out at the same time.

What you don't seem to understand is that cleric stance is toggled . It's not like nocturnal or diurnal, you can toggle it on and off mid combat. No shit a healer in cleric stance only produces heals, but only a bad healer would actually try to heal in cleric stance. And on the other end on the spectrum, you seem to underestimate just how much dps a healer can actually pull in cleric stance ,especially in a PvP setting where it is ilvl synced.

A dps in this game realistically is not going to kill a healer in 1:1, especially not an nocturnal astro, not unless they straight up use an melee LB and even that's pushing it. You're literally grasping at straws when you bring up "if he's good you he can still kill you if he didn't use his stuns on useless actions." There's statements from people that have experienced thegame when it was at that state, and even bring up videos, and you're just with your own personal statement from other games (and this is FFXIV, not other games) and no experience to the shitfest known as secure when cleric stance was allowed.

[keyburz]

At the time when cleric stance was allowed, a lvl 50 scholar's dps was very close to a summoner who's pet died. Its better to sacrifice a little loss in strength to gain 6 more heals AND raises (team of 8 healers compared to standard setup). The point of battlegrounds is to survive and hold the base. Killing comes secondary. What better way to survive then to have more healers that can do nearly the same amount of dps as well? If a dps can do 500 while the healer can do 400 plus keep anyone from dying (go try and kill someone while a nearby healer is healing him), its almost like anyone not playing a healer is playing half a class.

[PotatoTree]

I would honestly prefer healers to not dps at all because they are taking kills from dps who could use the battle high/fever more efficiently, which will raise the chances for the team to win.

Also you underestimate the power of full healer groups. They were impossible to kill. Here's a vid of my group back then against a healer stacked group. We were stalemated for 5min. Against any non pug group that didn't know how to rotate knockbacks and keep 4 people in the flag, they would have taken the flag and be impossible to flip back for the rest of the game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW9e5UYlUgg

That was with clerics nerf. Nowdays, healers have even better aoe dps, especially WHM. It would be completely imbalanced. And you have to consider that the more healers you have, the more divine seal raise you have. At a certain point, you can just loop divine seal raises.

[loreleidiangelo]

I would honestly prefer healers to not dps at all because they are taking kills from dps who could use the battle high/fever more efficiently, which will raise the chances for the team to win.

Also you underestimate the power of full healer groups. They were impossible to kill. Here's a vid of my group back then against a healer stacked group. We were stalemated for 5min. Against any non pug group that didn't know how to rotate knockbacks and keep 4 people in the flag, they would have taken the flag and be impossible to flip back for the rest of the game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW9e5UYlUgg

That was with clerics nerf. Nowdays, healers have even better aoe dps, especially WHM. It would be completely imbalanced. And you have to consider that the more healers you have, the more divine seal raise you have. At a certain point, you can just loop divine seal raises.

Do you mean Divine Breath? Divine Seal does shit-all for raises.