The positive Astrologian thread!

[TatoRazzino]

Snip

People are asking that in almost all threads, Gideon, and most of them are not even trying to learn AST properly. There are people saying that the only thing that raises dps is an Enhanced Balance and that they're having trouble setting that combo. That's basically the worst possible strategy for cards to be used; there's only like 3% chance you'll get that combo in two Draws. Another example: people get a Bole and say it's shit when there's no tank buster. They don't realize that, by using the Bole during normal damage, gives you (or your healing partner) breathing room to conserve MP or DPS - that's value right there. It's like saying that a crit Adlo when there's no tank buster is shit because you don't need that for regular damage. You, as a main SCH, knows that the purpose of the double shielding in Adlo is not to shield tank busters; your regular Adlo has to be enough, otherwise your tank will get busted like 70% of the time.

[GideonHighmourn]

snip

Once again, your default argument goes right back to "l2p", which has absolutely nothing to do with how the class performs in the previous meta, or how it fails to create it's own.

Even in all the best possible scenarios for AST, they currently do not fit into the previous meta or create their own, new meta that can compete with the previous meta. This is why progression groups don't bring AST.

This is the point (or underlying problem) most people are trying to make about AST, even if they don't explicitly state it.

Yes, of course, when they use AST as if it were a WHM/SCH in the previous meta it's not going to perform properly. Why do people do that? Because AST doesn't create it's own, new meta that can compete with the previous one. Which is why people don't take AST on progression. Which is why people complain.

(EDIT: This will be my last response of this manner in this thread. I've tried to stay on-topic, but I get really irritated when people's immediate defense of a class or response to concern is that people need to "l2p" or "gg get carried".)

[Bovinity]

People are asking that in almost all threads, Gideon, and most of them are not even trying to learn AST properly. There are people saying that the only thing that raises dps is an Enhanced Balance and that they're having trouble setting that combo. That's basically the worst possible strategy for cards to be used; there's only like 3% chance you'll get that combo in two Draws.

Sure, but that's kinda their point...it's so rare that you'll get something impactful that it's almost comical.

Yes, the other cards CAN have utility, but you'll likely not get them at times when it'd matter, and pretty much every single effect can be done better and/or more reliably by other classes.

(I still think it'd be cooler if the deck behaved like an actual deck and you had to cycle through all the cards before re-shuffling and getting a new set, or something similar.)

[TatoRazzino]

I think Tato's situation is something that we actually need to experience ourselves. I'm quite interested in Tato's raid group's WHM healing style and what they're doing. If you could elaborate, Tato, that would be nice

I can. Basically, my WHM loves his new DPS skills and wants to use them as much as possible. WHM is quite powerful now, with three DoTs (200/250/290 potency), two off GCD skills (150/300 potency) and a new main burst spell (210 potency). I, as AST, can apply three DoTs as well (200/240/450 potency) and use a 200 burst. Since no one needs to solo heal with AST there, we both can DPS now and then and have fun. The cards will provide utility and we can split DPS in too and, with a little work, we can reach the numbers a SCH can reach on his own. If he was solo healing, I believe SCH would be better, but he's not; he can, but he doesn't want to. He got new toys in the expansion, let him play with them, you know?

[Cynfael]

Once again, your default argument goes right back to "l2p", which has absolutely nothing to do with how the class performs in the previous meta, or how it fails to create it's own.

Even in all the best possible scenarios for AST, they currently do not fit into the previous meta or create their own, new meta that can compete with the previous meta. This is why progression groups don't bring AST.

This is the point (or underlying problem) most people are trying to make about AST, even if they don't explicitly state it.

Yes, of course, when they use AST as if it were a WHM/SCH in the previous meta it's not going to perform properly. Why do people do that? Because AST doesn't create it's own, new meta that can compete with the previous one. Which is why people don't take AST on progression. Which is why people complain.

Exactly this. I'll happily eat my foot if someone can detail a new, effective strategy exclusive to or simply optimal for AST that allows it to shine as well as the other two healers do.

Despite the fact that AST indisputably has its own style (despite big chunks of the kit being derivative of WHM and SCH), it doesn't seem to produce any superior result for skillful gameplay. You can make great calls, have your mental flowchart of card usage depending on situation and party comp up and running, and you can even be favored by RNG and still fall a little short of what an equally skilled SCH or WHM would contribute. I really don't believe at this point that this new meta for AST exists, at least not until a few more tweaks happen.

[SirShuffles]

This thread derailed hard.

[Ariel_Valmont]

I don't mind civil discussion if we can keep it civil, and still talk about the things that are great. The AST needs help posts are kind of beating a dead horse, positive solutions would be a better topic. And for those of us that are doing A1S as astrologians, any tips and tricks we find to share would be a boon to us all as well. Sunday night on oppressor I wasn't feeling to positive about being able to clear as AST, but Monday night I felt it was within my reach, granted we are still learning it, and overall only have a few hours of practice in over a couple nights.

[Bovinity]

I don't mind civil discussion if we can keep it civil, and still talk about the things that are great. The AST needs help posts are kind of beating a dead horse, positive solutions would be a better topic. And for those of us that are doing A1S as astrologians, any tips and tricks we find to share would be a boon to us all as well. Sunday night on oppressor I wasn't feeling to positive about being able to clear as AST, but Monday night I felt it was within my reach, granted we are still learning it, and overall only have a few hours of practice in over a couple nights.

Well, I really, really love the idea of a healer with strong support and proactive skills, if that's any help!

[VanEinstein]

You totally misread me, dude. I'll make myself clear: I don't think there is any reason for jobs to be "competitive". What does that even mean?

Take a moment to consider the wealth of other mmorpg's on the market, and how many classes some of them have. In fact, let's look at World of Warcraft, because it's the closest example I can think of. Boo and hiss all you like if that's your gut reaction, but hold your horses. When you reach a point where the number of classes of a given "role" or "job" in raid content exceeds the minimum demanded, everyone starts to look at what they believe the most effective selection is, not that which is merely adequate, unless their approach is of a more casual nature. Of course not that WoW suffers this issue quite so much due to larger raid sizes, but it was still an isue (at least up to the introduction of variable size raiding perhaps - I don't know, I wasn't there for that). Anyhow, let's say for example you had chosen to play a particular job at a time when it was at its weakest. WoW has always had those cycles - one as king of the hill, one sitting down at the bottom crying itself to sleep, and the rest all somewhere between. It's not easy to balance so many classes.

Oh, even better yet, forget WoW. Here's one that should be a lot closer to home for a great many here. Final Fantasy XI (w/ a whopping 22 jobs). I played that game on and off all throughout its lifespan so far, and it's painfully obvious that Square has had a hard time keeping all of the jobs relevant. Red Mage was my baby, but its glory days have long been over, and even with the new toys they have given it, its desirability is nothing like it used to be. Geomancer, one of the newer jobs, has had to receive continual adjustment to make it desirable (I still don't know if it's there yet, it's been at least 6 months since I played last), because Square made the mistake of creating the insanely powerful Empyrean Weapon that made a 4 song bard irreplaceable.

Being competitive is all about being valued equally, and when a class (in this case job) is not, you see them being left out in favor of what people discover works -best- , specifically during progression where it's most important for those with a drive to succeed at the earliest possible attempt. This isn't anything new to 14 either. The DPS were victims of such scrutiny in coil.

[Ghishlain]

Read the OP.
This thread was about posting the things we love about about the astrologian.
This was not about a "civil discussion" you got enough threads for that.
So yea, this thread has converter from "hey let's talk positive to yet another discussion thread and hereby lose it's meaning.

I would like to point out that the OP and I have had a few discussions on those last few pages and he's agreed with some of what I've said and I've agreed with some of what he says.

And between the OP and I, despite the RNG buff factor, we enjoy the job, based on the way we've responded to each other.

Again, while the discussion wasn't "OMG YAY AST IS AWESOME!" it was still a discussion stating the pros and cons of the job and how fun the job still is regardless.

This is something I think everyone needs to stop saying, in my opinion. In 2.x, DRG was the outcast that no one wanted in their raidgroups because it didn't add any raid utility and couldn't outdps anyone. Did they "fix" it? No. They made minor changes and addressed the broken parts – there were mechanics that made it impossible to clear because DRGs would die no matter what. That didn't make DRG competitive. Because it doesn't need to be. Raid progression groups, like I've been saying since forever, use 2.x metas, because it's easier and doesn't require any learning curve other than the fight itself. AST doesn't adapt in ANY way to the 2.x meta, and it doesn't have to adapt. It's FINE that there are no A3S clears with AST. There were A1S and A2S first week clears with AST. I daresay 90% of the groups won't get there no matter what you do. You could play Jesus with my group and they won't raise their DPS.

As you've rightfully pointed out, DRGs were excluded from progression content because their Magic Defense prevented them from being able to survive certain attacks. S-E fixed those issues, and thus made them more acceptable. While NIN and MNK were both more sought after, now DRG isn't being left in the sidelines due to infeasibility.

The idea for the AST changes isn't to necessarily make them sought after, but instead to make them viable. I don't think AST is as infeasible in the current meta as DRG was at the onset of Final Coil, but there needs to be some changes to make them more desirable.

The fact that there hasn't been a single AST clear in A3S yet indicates a very low desirability for AST. This may change this week, but if we don't see an AST clear this week for A3S, that is a very negative sign for AST players.

Gideon and Cynfael spoke it best and I agree with their point - show us a strategy that can become mainstream that pushes AST's strengths to the forefront of a new healing meta. That's when we can say AST doesn't need any help.

People are asking that in almost all threads, Gideon, and most of them are not even trying to learn AST properly. There are people saying that the only thing that raises dps is an Enhanced Balance and that they're having trouble setting that combo. That's basically the worst possible strategy for cards to be used; there's only like 3% chance you'll get that combo in two Draws. Another example: people get a Bole and say it's shit when there's no tank buster. They don't realize that, by using the Bole during normal damage, gives you (or your healing partner) breathing room to conserve MP or DPS - that's value right there. It's like saying that a crit Adlo when there's no tank buster is shit because you don't need that for regular damage. You, as a main SCH, knows that the purpose of the double shielding in Adlo is not to shield tank busters; your regular Adlo has to be enough, otherwise your tank will get busted like 70% of the time.

I don't recommend you broadly generalize the many players on this forum as "not trying to learn" how to play AST. Most of us understand the capabilities of each card and how it may best fit with a particular party composition. Some are more obvious than others (Balance and Arrow versus Spear), but many of us recognize that all cards have some value - and that value changes positively or negatively based on your party composition, the existing battle scenario, and resources available.

I don't mind civil discussion if we can keep it civil, and still talk about the things that are great. The AST needs help posts are kind of beating a dead horse, positive solutions would be a better topic. And for those of us that are doing A1S as astrologians, any tips and tricks we find to share would be a boon to us all as well. Sunday night on oppressor I wasn't feeling to positive about being able to clear as AST, but Monday night I felt it was within my reach, granted we are still learning it, and overall only have a few hours of practice in over a couple nights.

I'd personally like to see Draw reduced to 20s. I think that would alleviate a lot of the "buffs aren't effective" concerns without actually boosting the card buffs to unsustainable value.