The positive Astrologian thread!

[Bovinity]

And this is what you misunderstand. No one is asking for AST to perform exactly the same function in the previous meta that WHM/SCH would have. They're asking for them to be able to match/compete with their own meta. Currently, AST doesn't compete in the previous meta or create their own, new meta which can compete with the previous one. This is what leads to AST not being taken in progression groups.

Yeah, I'd like to see a situation where WHM/AST is useful, letting the WHM do the bulk of the direct healing while the AST boosts the group DPS significantly and provides damage mitigation (disable/shields) and/or emergency heals.

The problem is that even with something like that, the SCH would still end up doing it better right now.

[TatoRazzino]

Snip

People are asking that in almost all threads, Gideon, and most of them are not even trying to learn AST properly. There are people saying that the only thing that raises dps is an Enhanced Balance and that they're having trouble setting that combo. That's basically the worst possible strategy for cards to be used; there's only like 3% chance you'll get that combo in two Draws. Another example: people get a Bole and say it's shit when there's no tank buster. They don't realize that, by using the Bole during normal damage, gives you (or your healing partner) breathing room to conserve MP or DPS - that's value right there. It's like saying that a crit Adlo when there's no tank buster is shit because you don't need that for regular damage. You, as a main SCH, knows that the purpose of the double shielding in Adlo is not to shield tank busters; your regular Adlo has to be enough, otherwise your tank will get busted like 70% of the time.

[Bovinity]

People are asking that in almost all threads, Gideon, and most of them are not even trying to learn AST properly. There are people saying that the only thing that raises dps is an Enhanced Balance and that they're having trouble setting that combo. That's basically the worst possible strategy for cards to be used; there's only like 3% chance you'll get that combo in two Draws.

Sure, but that's kinda their point...it's so rare that you'll get something impactful that it's almost comical.

Yes, the other cards CAN have utility, but you'll likely not get them at times when it'd matter, and pretty much every single effect can be done better and/or more reliably by other classes.

(I still think it'd be cooler if the deck behaved like an actual deck and you had to cycle through all the cards before re-shuffling and getting a new set, or something similar.)

[GideonHighmourn]

snip

Once again, your default argument goes right back to "l2p", which has absolutely nothing to do with how the class performs in the previous meta, or how it fails to create it's own.

Even in all the best possible scenarios for AST, they currently do not fit into the previous meta or create their own, new meta that can compete with the previous meta. This is why progression groups don't bring AST.

This is the point (or underlying problem) most people are trying to make about AST, even if they don't explicitly state it.

Yes, of course, when they use AST as if it were a WHM/SCH in the previous meta it's not going to perform properly. Why do people do that? Because AST doesn't create it's own, new meta that can compete with the previous one. Which is why people don't take AST on progression. Which is why people complain.

(EDIT: This will be my last response of this manner in this thread. I've tried to stay on-topic, but I get really irritated when people's immediate defense of a class or response to concern is that people need to "l2p" or "gg get carried".)

[Cynfael]

Once again, your default argument goes right back to "l2p", which has absolutely nothing to do with how the class performs in the previous meta, or how it fails to create it's own.

Even in all the best possible scenarios for AST, they currently do not fit into the previous meta or create their own, new meta that can compete with the previous meta. This is why progression groups don't bring AST.

This is the point (or underlying problem) most people are trying to make about AST, even if they don't explicitly state it.

Yes, of course, when they use AST as if it were a WHM/SCH in the previous meta it's not going to perform properly. Why do people do that? Because AST doesn't create it's own, new meta that can compete with the previous one. Which is why people don't take AST on progression. Which is why people complain.

Exactly this. I'll happily eat my foot if someone can detail a new, effective strategy exclusive to or simply optimal for AST that allows it to shine as well as the other two healers do.

Despite the fact that AST indisputably has its own style (despite big chunks of the kit being derivative of WHM and SCH), it doesn't seem to produce any superior result for skillful gameplay. You can make great calls, have your mental flowchart of card usage depending on situation and party comp up and running, and you can even be favored by RNG and still fall a little short of what an equally skilled SCH or WHM would contribute. I really don't believe at this point that this new meta for AST exists, at least not until a few more tweaks happen.

[RichardButte]

Exactly this. I'll happily eat my foot if someone can detail a new, effective strategy exclusive to or simply optimal for AST that allows it to shine as well as the other two healers do.

I did that months ago, but please, don't go marinating your foot in BBQ sauce because you're still not WRONG at all...

The "new AST meta" would've revolved around a simple principle: the job of a healer is to keep the party alive until the end of the encounter. WHMs and SCHs do this by healing or shielding incoming damage.

AST, hypothetically, could've done this by bringing about the end of the encounter more quickly. Weaker healing and fewer emergency buttons are fine as tradeoffs if the AST is genuinely capable of increasing the party's DPS to the point that phases end more quickly, and everyone would take less damage because the boss/adds aren't alive long enough to DO that damage.

THAT would've been the new AST meta. However, the card buffs aren't even strong enough that they beat out a single Selene firing off it's 3% buff every minute for 30 seconds, in terms of adding any significant increase to the overall party DPS.

I expected AST to be a weaker healer out of the gate. Out of the three jobs, they were the most scared about someone finding an exploit with AST and facerolling savage content and I don't blame them. In hindsight, ASTs were going to have to sit this one out one way or another.

I actually support Yoshi-P in not wanting to repeat Blizzard's Death Knight debacle, what with the class launching stupidly overpowered (all three specs could tank AND DPS, and did it stupidly well, too...).

ASTs will have their day soon, and I'd rather be unique in being an AST player than one member of a horde of people playing an OP class.

[Cynfael]

I did that months ago, but please, don't go marinating your foot in BBQ sauce because you're still not WRONG at all...

The "new AST meta" would've revolved around a simple principle: the job of a healer is to keep the party alive until the end of the encounter. WHMs and SCHs do this by healing or shielding incoming damage.

AST, hypothetically, could've done this by bringing about the end of the encounter more quickly. Weaker healing and fewer emergency buttons are fine as tradeoffs if the AST is genuinely capable of increasing the party's DPS to the point that phases end more quickly, and everyone would take less damage because the boss/adds aren't alive long enough to DO that damage.

This is rather what I imagined for AST, too. Who knows what the upcoming changes will bring, though. If the patch delivers what it sounds like it might based on what Yoshi was talking about, with more impactful card buffs and some improvements to AST's healing game, AST might more effectively fill the "support caster" niche while closing the healing utility gap with WHM and SCH just enough to allow them to hold their own.

Even if it takes more skill and more effort, that would be an acceptable tradeoff and a welcome challenge if the reward were there.

[RichardButte]

AST might more effectively fill the "support caster" niche while closing the healing utility gap with WHM and SCH just enough to allow them to hold their own.

And that's pretty much exactly where it has to land: 90% of the healing and emergency potency of SCH/WHM, with the cards being beneficial enough to close that last 10% gap.

Due to the RNG of the cards, sometimes ASTs will be giving 110-120%, but most of the time they'll probably be more around 90-95%, but the POTENTIAL to hit 120% will justify it.

Again, I'm hopeful for ASTs. They fixed warriors up properly and I'm sure they'll do the same here. I don't begrudge Yoshi-P one bit for erring on the side of caution. Savage world firsts SHOULD be a big deal, not a week one thing because ASTs were shipped overpowered.

[SirShuffles]

This thread derailed hard.

[Ariel_Valmont]

I don't mind civil discussion if we can keep it civil, and still talk about the things that are great. The AST needs help posts are kind of beating a dead horse, positive solutions would be a better topic. And for those of us that are doing A1S as astrologians, any tips and tricks we find to share would be a boon to us all as well. Sunday night on oppressor I wasn't feeling to positive about being able to clear as AST, but Monday night I felt it was within my reach, granted we are still learning it, and overall only have a few hours of practice in over a couple nights.