The positive Astrologian thread!

[TatoRazzino]

You are ignoring some important facts about that buff. First of all, haste doesn't affect every DPS job the same; some jobs do most damage with DoTs and Off-GCD spells, none of which are affected by haste. On top of that, the buff is not continuous and spells/weaponskills have to be used while it is on for it to be effective. If you target moves or starts doing anything else instead of casting, the buff gets less effective each second; that is true for both SCH and AST. However, the Arrow, even though it has an obvious RNG component, is concentrated and can be stored to be used in an optimal situation. Depending on the situation and if used properly, you can get more DPS output from it by using it on a single target than Selene will be able to get from an entire party. According to my testing in a dummy, Selene barely added 25-30 extra DPS output to a DRG, which is supposedly one of the best jobs to receive it; and that was in a dummy situation, with no moving and no mechanics.

[TatoRazzino]

Snip

You mixed up a few things, imo. WHMs' emergency button is not Benediction, but Tetragrammaton (700 potency heal); Benediction is a full heal, with 5 min cd, that currently doesn't have any match in any other healing job. Just like Divine Seal, it's a WHM's signature move.
Lustrate is comparable to Essential Dignity and Tetra, but it's also the only reliable resource a SCH has to do big healing. Emergency Tactics is nice, but it's a shield-to-heal conversion, which transforms an Adlo into a 600 potency spell (if it crits it's amazing, but according to everyone RNG is bad, so you can't rely on it) and Succor in a 300 potency AoE spell; WHM and AST have more powerful spells available all the time for less MP cost. Also, Dissipation can fuck up healing, since the buff it provides can do less than the fairy; it's a button you use to get more Lustrates if shit hits the fan, and it's nothing like any of the other buffs you mentioned.

[GideonHighmourn]

if it crits it's amazing, but according to everyone RNG is bad, so you can't rely on it

There's a fundamental difference between the "RNG" of a critical hit on an ability and an ability that relies on RNG for it's functionality.

NOT critting on an ET+Adlo/Succor doesn't make it unreliable; ET will always transform shields into heals, and critting through "RNG" will just make it more efficient/potent. The ability to Draw Spire 3 times in a row during an encounter where TP isn't a problem or the inability to Draw Bole before a tank buster that requires mitigation makes it unreliable.

[TatoRazzino]

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Unless ET+Adlo crits, it's weaker than Cure II/Benefic II, while costing more MP. If it crits when it's not necessary, you overheal and the whole crit goes to waste. Getting a crit with Adlo is always good, but getting a crit with ET+Adlo can be good or can't do anything at all. This is another fundamental difference between having a cooldown to transform a low value healing spell in a higher value healing spell and actually having a big healing spell.

[GideonHighmourn]

Getting a crit with Adlo is always good, but getting a crit with ET+Adlo can be good or can't do anything at all.

That is completely and patently incorrect; ET will always transform shields into a heal. Getting/not getting a crit doesn't make it not "do anything at all".

Unless ET+Adlo crits, it's weaker than Cure II/Benefic II, while costing more MP.

Just because it's weaker than Cure II/Benefic II, doesn't make it "useless" (as you seem to be implying) either. If you're going by that logic, everything AST has in terms of heals is "useless" compared to their WHM/SCH counterparts.

Again, there's a fundamental difference between the "RNG" of a crit and the "RNG" of Draw that you seem to misunderstand; this was my main point, which you seem to have mostly missed. The point was not to debate the potency/efficiency of ET+Adlo. You can't call ET "unreliable when it doesn't crit (RNG)" the same way people call Draw unreliable due to RNG.

Draw relies on RNG for it's functionality. Crits just change the efficiency/potency of a skill and don't make the skill useless/useful in it's absence/presence.

Also, I don't typically use ET for Adlo, but rather for Succor. I can't really speak for other people, but I don't think many people use ET for Adlo outside of 4-man instances, or very rare cases in 8-mans.

[Cynfael]

Unless ET+Adlo crits, it's weaker than Cure II/Benefic II, while costing more MP. If it crits when it's not necessary, you overheal and the whole crit goes to waste. Getting a crit with Adlo is always good, but getting a crit with ET+Adlo can be good or can't do anything at all. This is another fundamental difference between having a cooldown to transform a low value healing spell in a higher value healing spell and actually having a big healing spell.

What you say is mostly true, but in context of discussing SCH, it's not very important.

SCH can afford to bleed the most MP of the healers, so the cost is tuned well enough. ET+Adlo is a relatively uncommon use, anyway; between direct heals and the fairy, SCH has more-than-sufficient healing potency for ST in anything but an emergency, where Lustrate may be woven in or rarely ET+Adlo used to catch up on raw HP.

[TatoRazzino]

That is completely and patently incorrect; ET will always transform shields into a heal. Getting/not getting a crit doesn't make it not "do anything at all".

You misread me. I said that getting a crit with ET+Adlo can be a waste, because of overhealing. I never said that the conversion is dependable on it getting a crit or not. My point is: SCH doesn't have any big heals. ET is a cooldown that transforms the two shielding spells SCH has in weaker or more costly versions of spells WHM and AST already have. That's not a problem, mind me; SCH is not supposed to do that. However, the post I originally replied to was arranging healing cooldowns and put ET there as if it was an addition to SCH that made it do more than AST, when that's not the case at all; ET is a cooldown that fills a gap and allows SCH to have a big healing spell every 30s without consuming stacks.

[Ghishlain]

You are ignoring some important facts about that buff. First of all, haste doesn't affect every DPS job the same; some jobs do most damage with DoTs and Off-GCD spells, none of which are affected by haste. On top of that, the buff is not continuous and spells/weaponskills have to be used while it is on for it to be effective. If you target moves or starts doing anything else instead of casting, the buff gets less effective each second; that is true for both SCH and AST. However, the Arrow, even though it has an obvious RNG component, is concentrated and can be stored to be used in an optimal situation. Depending on the situation and if used properly, you can get more DPS output from it by using it on a single target than Selene will be able to get from an entire party. According to my testing in a dummy, Selene barely added 25-30 extra DPS output to a DRG, which is supposedly one of the best jobs to receive it; and that was in a dummy situation, with no moving and no mechanics.

Of course, Haste is one of those buffs where it's a bit hard to quantify how it actually affects the player. It'll do better for those jobs that already have haste or those that want to get through their rotation faster, so NIN / MNK / WAR / BLM all come to mind (though one could argue the use for BLM since their rotation is already really tuned, apparently). Likewise, any DoT style class like SMN and SCH won't be able to make it as useful and any seriously heavy oGCD class like DRG won't either. WHM / MCN / BRD / DRK / PLD all probably get okay mileage.

Admttidly, there are also exceptions too. A SMN getting Haste while in Dreadwyrm Trance and spamming that Ruin III button as hard as possible will get much more mileage than a SMN who's at the beginning of their DoT cycle. A DRG getting Haste while they're going through their burst cycle can make use of the additional attacks, etc.

While you mention 25-30 extra DPS on DRG, think of how that effects a party. If Selene adds an average of 25-30 DPS per person in the group and you're accounting for six people (four DPS and two tanks), that's another 150-180 DPS added to the group.

I don't think an AST can add that outside of getting perfect draws. If a DRG is doing 1,400 DPS and you're getting Balance every single time, your DRG is probably gaining about 70-100 DPS through their rotation.

I will admit it is exceedingly difficult to quantify how every single card and RR + buff permutation can affect a job/class/group, but I do believe AST is slightly underpowered compared to the reliability that Selene gives you, even when you take into account Haste isn't a great buff for specific DPS.

(if it crits it's amazing, but according to everyone RNG is bad, so you can't rely on it)

Just going to weigh in on this issue too.

If an Adlo crits, woohoo, more eHP! If it doesn't crit, it's still a heal and it's still beneficial for your tank.

If you're an AST and trying to setup a potent Enhanced Balance + Time Dilation for a DRG that's about to burst cycle and then end up drawing a Ewer and then shuffling into a Spire, then what do you do?

While they're both RNG in nature, an Adlo will be useful in any situation regardless of RNG while RNG buffs aren't. Of course that's the gamble you take when playing AST and sometimes it pays off big and other times it blows up in your face.

[Ariel_Valmont]

These aren't even in the same category. Assize is phenomenal, Indom is very good. Celestial Opp is pretty, but pretty worthless.

Fairly certain I pointed that out in the text below what you quoted, I grouped them together because they are all instant cast, and it shows that if they added a heal to it or some kind of effect that works with the sects, it could be on the level as those other 2 abilities, as it is, it is not worthless, it has uses, and can be used in a pinch to add time on to your hots in diurnal stance and allow you to cast a bigger heal, instead of refreshing the hots.

[TatoRazzino]

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The thing is: Selene doesn't add this average. Dragoons benefit the most from it, according to some threads, and they can only get 25-30 on a dummy. In an actual fight, that number will be lower because of moving, target changing etc.; if I would just guess a reasonable number, I'd say 15-20. So for 6 people it's 90-120, and I'm not counting the fact that tank DPS is usually lower in most fights and that you can get nothing out of a haste buff, because it's only effective when a certain number of casts is done (that used to be the problem with how Ewer and Spire worked before the fix, btw).
And about Adlo, I was talking about ET+Adlo, not about Adlo alone. Adlo alone is more shielding and shields are never wasted; healing, however, doesn't work the same. hitting a 7K heal when you only need 4.5K lets 2.5K to waste, which is basically the whole crit.