WAR love is out of hand. Twelve forbid the other Tanks stand out in any way.

[Naelle]

I've yet to see anyone prove that DRK is notably behind Warrior in MT dps. You cant go on saying WAR is far ahead of others and then not have any evidence but hear say. The burden of proof falls on those saying the others suffer at the hands of WAR.

EDIT: And before its brought up, dummy parses aren't valid proof. Especially for tanks.

I don't think it's been long enough to prove without a doubt how far Warrior is over the other two (or not, if that's the case) but in every video/stream/group I've been in the Warrior is always above the other tank in DPS by a good amount. I've seen a few go over BRD/MCH even and that's just plain wrong. I don't want Warrior to get ruined, I just want the three tanks to be close enough that they're all still viable in all content.

[Allyrion]

I don't understand why the WAR community is so defensive.

I think mostly because they are worried any nerf will send them back to pre-2.1 Hell.

I think WAR is really versatile and you don't lose much putting them in any role.
They bring a lot. DRK and PLD is less versatile and only excel conditionally.

So that doesn't seem balanced. You can point out the weaknesses of PLD, like low dps or weaker against magic.
Or DRK, like runs out of TP as an OT, not much utility and weaker against physical.

WAR is pretty offensive based, but I don't have the impression that good WARs are any more squishy against magic or physical.
So what do they sacrifice for their offensive niche?
If they had more weaknesses to point out, I don't think this discussion would've gone as far.

The most people say is that PLD/DRK can keep up in X situation.
Okay, but it's not equal overall, is it? You should feel disadvantaged(even though you're still viable) in certain fights . Are there any of that for WAR?

[Airswimmer]

snip

You know, it's not to make big long posts with lots of words and numbers, but it doesn't mean much of anything when you ignore practical usage and numbers that don't fit your narrative.

The reason DRK has been said to be preferred in fights with magic damage is because Dark Mind is on a 60 second cooldown. That means that Dark Mind, which can be buffed to mitigate 30% magical damage, can be up for every magical damage tank buster along with either a Shadowskin or Shadow Wall.
You seemed to ignore that idea.

[Naelle]

You know, it's not to make big long posts with lots of words and numbers, but it doesn't mean much of anything when you ignore practical usage and numbers that don't fit your narrative.

The reason DRK has been said to be preferred in fights with magic damage is because Dark Mind is on a 60 second cooldown. That means that Dark Mind, which can be buffed to mitigate 30% magical damage, can be up for every magical damage tank buster along with either a Shadowskin or Shadow Wall.
You seemed to ignore that idea.

I would say you ignored that Inner Beast can do the exact same thing as well as heal you for quite a bit. It's still only one skill. That's not quite enough to pigeon whole them into "Magic Tank". That does put Paladin at a slight disadvantage in fights with all Magic damage, but that's called balance. Paladin is the clear winner in Physical fights, they shouldn't be the best in Magic also.

[Kaith]

The problem is that no one is really suggesting any viable way to fix this supposed problem. Buff PLD damage and all it does it make them the be all end all tank for anything but magic. Nerf WAR damage and they become useless. Nerf Storms Path and you now have no reason to bring a warrior ever. At most DRK could use a little more MT viability for physical MTing, but not by much.

For PLD

Sword Oath and Shield Oath taken off the global cooldown
Shield Swipe off global cooldown
Shield Swipe no longer gives pacification (because everything resists it), change it to something else that is useful

Something like one of the following as Shield Swipes additional effect
5% Slashing Resist + 5% INT down (but have it not stack with SE or Delirium so half of this is going to be eliminated by the other tank or completely negated by WAR/MNK)
10% damage buff to the PLD for 15 seconds
Gives PLD 100-200 TP on us
Or just make pacification actually land on mobs


For DRK give them a minor boost to their physical mitigation.

[Tila]

as well as heal you for quite a bit.

lol

Also, the reason we have all these parses putting OT warrior high up is because very few people are willing to even try alternates (groups that are trying no WAR aren't exactly complaining either) Or if they do, they dont count combined tank DPS, rather just what the warrior is doing. Which is also a failing.

Or worse, they're being selective on which parses they show. Like Ravana which highly favors burst damage is wretched proof that WAR is doing to much DPS.

[Tila]

Sword Oath and Shield Oath taken off the global cooldown
Shield Swipe off global cooldown
Shield Swipe no longer gives pacification (because everything resists it), make it give 5% Slashing resist and 5% INT down (i.e. half of what Storm's Eye and Delirium). Make it not stack / be overwritten by SE or Delirium debuff. (So WAR/DRK would get 10/10, WAR/PLD gets 10/5, PLD/DRK gets 5/10)

Give DRK some sort of extra physical ability

Congratulations, you just gave PLD incredibly bad TP problems and did precious little regarding their position as OT.

As MT you really did nothing. DRK will still be wanted for magical fights, PLD will still be wanted for physical fights. At most you gave less reason to take a DRK when the group has a MNK.

[Naelle]

lol

Also, the reason we have all these parses putting OT warrior high up is because very few people are willing to even try alternates (groups that are trying no WAR aren't exactly complaining either) Or if they do, they dont count combined tank DPS, rather just what the warrior is doing. Which is also a failing.

Or worse, they're being selective on which parses they show. Like Ravana which highly favors burst damage is wretched proof that WAR is doing to much DPS.

I understand that people generally only show off their amazing parses, but where are they from the other Jobs? I've said it before, I don't want anything to be nerfed. I just want things to be balanced enough to allow any combination of Jobs to succeed.

[Kaith]

Congratulations, you just gave PLD incredibly bad TP problems and did precious little regarding their position as OT.

As MT you really did nothing. DRK will still be wanted for magical fights, PLD will still be wanted for physical fights. At most you gave less reason to take a DRK when the group has a MNK.

I actually editted my post whilst you were replying to add more on Shield Swipe.

I wouldn't say that's nothing. Being able to switch between stances without losing a GCD and without breaking combo is pretty large. Making Shield Swipe have a worthwhile additional effect (or it being off GCD) would make it usable again. Right now you're only going to use it in TP draining scenarios.

PLD's problem isn't really with OT'ing.

[Makeda]

I main a PLD. Always have and always will. I know the PLD is the weakest tank and has the worst aoe dps of any of the tanks at the moment, but I still them it. The WAR has always been more versitile when it comes to MT or OT and has had skills to support both and that's what seperates it from the Def heavy PLD. However, I just recently learned that has pretty much destroyed some of the things that made PLD special.

Why is SE doing this? Why are they giving so much love and versatility to one tank other the others? When are they going to show the PLD some love? Am I just crazy to think this is complete bull?

Heh.

I was here at launch and for about 6 months, and then went away until just recently. I see you joined after I left.

So a little perspective might be handy:

I remember when you couldn't get respect on a warrior even in a level 10 guildhest...
When the only response to showing up with one was 'lolwut, dude, delete your toon and try again'.

Forumites would complain that you'd show up for a raid on your warrior, they'd say 'no thanks', and then they'd still be looking for a second PLD... with raid rosters preferring to not raid over taking a warrior.

We spent months with SE basically coming back to the playerbase with: L2P Noobs.


The warrior self heal was strong at launch, but I don't know if its stronger now. Most of the players could not get it to be strong enough... Warrior mitigation was almost the same at that of a Pugilist though. So if they weren't using that self heal like crazy - they'd be going down like a Chicago Mobster with a new pair of cement shoes...

At launch the paladin mitigation was seen an amazing. So much so that nobody cared about the warrior's better threat. Groups were willing to dial back DPS enough to let a PLD get a good lead - because that shield lover was unkillable. Who needs a self heal when you're taking zero damage and your healers have gone out for pizza from boredom.

This was all by intent. One tank was meant as the self heal, the other as the mitigation. They just overdid it.

MMO designers tend to have that problem. They overdo things one way, and fix them by overdoing it in the other, and then keep at it trying to find the middle... Like playing darts when you cannot see the board, only your score after each game is over.

Everything goes in cycles in MMOs...