PLD dps needs to be buffed, current dps a joke

[Disc]

Take away SwO potency and you see the huge discrepancy . Your math SUMs it all up nicely.

This is where the difference in DPS is most prominent. This is also why PLD should not have their DPS buffed. The only thing keeping PLD from taking full advantage of Sword Oath is the gear reset. As PLD numbers increase their enmity generation will see a multiplicative benefit. A month or two from now you'll be good to go Sword Oath without wasting DPS on the Halone struggle. If they're buffed in advance there will be absolutely no place for DRK who will not compete on any front.

[SirTaint]

This is where the difference in DPS is most prominent. This is also why PLD should not have their DPS buffed. The only thing keeping PLD from taking full advantage of Sword Oath is the gear reset. As PLD numbers increase their enmity generation will see a multiplicative benefit. A month or two from now you'll be good to go Sword Oath without wasting DPS on the Halone struggle. If they're buffed in advance there will be absolutely no place for DRK who will not compete on any front.

No, that's not how it work at all. Every job scales with ilvl and gear. PLD will struggle with hate in SwO even at i210 because the OT and DPS will be i210 as well.

SE uses a potency system to keep everything on the same scale. PLD will always be the same % behind WAR and DRK the numbers will just be bigger.

[Giantbane]

No, that's not how it work at all. Every job scales with ilvl and gear. PLD will struggle with hate in SwO even at i210 because the OT and DPS will be i210 as well.

SE uses a potency system to keep everything on the same scale. PLD will always be the same % behind WAR and DRK the numbers will just be bigger.

Are we talking DPS in SwO or threat in SwO? I'd think threat in SwO should be closer to DRK out of grit, as Savage Blade and CoS have threat mods.

[Giantbane]

Grit is a 23% DPS loss from what a DRK would be doing without it. You don't pretend Darkside is limited to Grit stance to fluff numbers. (.8*1.15 = .92) to (1.15 - .92 = .23)

So what you're saying is that if you use Grit and Darkside together, then Grit directly reduces your damage by 23% of the DPS you would do if you didn't use darkside at all. Which is a silly way to look at it.

Grit just costs you 20% of the damage you were doing when you turn it on.

Well, it also means no blood weapon, but I don't feel like trying to calculate the direct contribution of Blood Weapon because you have to figure in how the MP is going to translate to damage as a % of your total potency without the mp. It's not as much as SwO.

Anyhow, I think the biggest complaint is that PLD loses SwO damage AND the damage penalty of ShO when swapping SwO > ShO, which is pretty hefty. DRK loses Blood Weapon and Grit. Since SwO accounts for more of a PLD's OT damage than Blood Weapon does to the DRK, the PLD is going to lose more DPS than the DRK will when swapping from DPS stance > Tank stance. Since the PLD already has lower OT damage, they're even worse off when in ShO.

[Galgarion]

The issue isn't OT damage, its MT damage.

Darkside is 15% damage boost, DA boost it further.

FoF is a 10% damage boost. Take away SwO potency and you see the huge discrepancy . Your math SUMs it all up nicely.

Yeah, but the fellow who uses dark arts for all of his combos is the fellow who goes OOM like a boss on the boss.

It is a boss loss.

[rawker]

The issue isn't OT damage, its MT damage.

Darkside is 15% damage boost, DA boost it further.

FoF is a 10% damage boost. Take away SwO potency and you see the huge discrepancy . Your math SUMs it all up nicely.

Incorrect. When in shield oath, activating FoF is a net gain of 4%. Sword Oath, 30%.

[Disc]

No, that's not how it work at all. Every job scales with ilvl and gear. PLD will struggle with hate in SwO even at i210 because the OT and DPS will be i210 as well.

SE uses a potency system to keep everything on the same scale. PLD will always be the same % behind WAR and DRK the numbers will just be bigger.

A 5% increase to damage does not translate to a flat 5% increase to enmity like it does for DPS. In shield Oath the enmity would double for 10%. SH+Savage 25%. SH+Halone up 35%. I've explained this several times over. Enmity modifiers offer a multiplicative effect DPS will never see. I have explained this several times in this thread. It does not matter where the other tanks are on this scale, you're not struggling to hold hate off of them.

So what you're saying is that if you use Grit and Darkside together, then Grit directly reduces your damage by 23% of the DPS you would do if you didn't use darkside at all. Which is a silly way to look at it.

Grit just costs you 20% of the damage you were doing when you turn it on.

No. If base is 100% DPS then Darkside is 115% DPS. 20% of 115% is 23%. Grit is a 23% DPS loss, if you dropped Darkside too you would see a 35% DPS loss. Shield Oath is a rougher calculation. 20% reduced from base sure, but loss of +50 potency on autos ups that by about another 12~15%(estimate) for a total of about 35% DPS loss. You're very eager to ignore the multiplicative effects in this game. Stop that.

[Giantbane]

No. If base is 100% DPS then Darkside is 115% DPS. 20% of 115% is 23%. Grit is a 23% DPS loss, if you dropped Darkside too you would see a 35% DPS loss. Shield Oath is a rougher calculation. 20% reduced from base sure, but loss of +50 potency on autos ups that by about another 12~15%(estimate) for a total of about 35% DPS loss. You're very eager to ignore the multiplicative effects in this game. Stop that.

Exactly, you're basing that 23% off of some arbitrary collection of abilities like "use all your other stuff, but not darkside because ... ???" when there's no good reason you wouldn't use darkside in the vast majority of situations whether it's tanking or DPS or some combination of the two (tanking w/o grit). So it's a nonsensical stat that doesn't serve any purpose for comparison.

I mean, I might as well say:
Using all your oGCD attacks (C&S, dark passenger, plunge, low blow, reprisal) gives you 20% more DPS (no idea if this is correct). So you're really doing 1.15 * 1.2 = 138% by using your oGCD attacks and darkside. Now if you turn on Grit, that lowers your DPS to 1.38 * 0.8 = 110.4%, 1.38 - 1.104 = .276. So Grit REALLY reduces your damage by 27.6% of the damage you do by just standing around doing GCD attacks. But that doesn't tell you anything useful. It's a purely useless stat.

[Noira]

So you guys want the best damage mitigation AND equal dps to to the other tanks :x ?

Never thought I'd see the day PLds complain about deeps ._..

You got bulwark, sheltron, rampart, sentienal, clemeny and divine veil, hell you even got more non eminty combo attacks, whereas War just got more attacks and a double edge sword auto parry.

Drks have to use mp to buff their mitigation on top of having rng to even use reprisal.

PLD just has to press button, the only time you need mp is for flash and clemency now.

You guys want your cake and on top of eating it too like what ? <.<

[NFaelivrin]

You got bulwark, sheltron, rampart, sentienal, clemeny and divine veil, hell you even got more non eminty combo attacks, whereas War just got more attacks and a double edge sword auto parry.

Sheltron and Bulwark are largely useless in the current raid, Clemency is incredibly situational. Paladin's defensive advantages are currently largely nullified by current raid design, leaving behind a tank that survives the same, not better than the others, but does less damage.