Do Warriors have any single disadvantage?

[tremor24]

sounds like people just want cookie cutter classes and have absolutely no difference between the tanks... that is not a fun game we already have Bards turning into immobile turrets so they have to feel the pangs of the casters, why turn more of the games jobs into one another? Warrior is fine, it's in the center, able to DPS when needed, and tank when needed, then you got PLD on the physical mitigation side, and DRK on the magical, it's a perfect trifecta, and i think it's balanced myself and creates the synergy this games Armoury system was made for.

All of the tank jobs have strengths and weaknesses, but saying it's balanced is completely wrong unless you are content with switching between classes according to the raid (or if you are a warrior already!). Which is fine for some of us, but not viable for everyone.

I know others have pointed this out before, but consider the reasonable tank compositions which statics currently consider.
Acceptable tank comps for all progression content:
PLD WAR
WAR WAR
DRK WAR

Monk in the party, optimal comps:
PLD WAR
WAR WAR

Monk in the party, hitting enrage or struggling with dps checks, optimal comps:
WAR WAR

Of course it's a trifecta, but one where warrior is always first and just a matter of deciding which of the three are in second and third based on the run.

[Launched]

In fact, Sentinel only has 2% more damage reduction worth of eHP than Vengeance. Shield Oath already reduces damage by 20% whereas Defiance doesn't. It makes so that Sentinel reduces 40% damage on top of already reduced damage by 20%. It makes it so that Sentinel only reduces 32% damage with shield oath, whereas Vengeance is still 30% in Defiance. Most people seem to not take that into account. Shield oath + Sentinel doesn't give 20 + 40% damage reduction, otherwise using Rempart + Sentinel on Shield oath would give 80% damage reduction and it would be almost a second Hallowed Ground.

You're wrong. Sentinel is still 40%, Vengeance is still 30%. Defiance, Shield Oath and Grit all have pretty much the same effect on your eHP (Defiance actually makes WAR receive less relative healing) and can be ignored when comparing cooldowns.

Assume both tanks have 10k hp base and take a 12.5k hp hit. PLD loses 10k hp, WAR loses 12.5k (out of 12.5k). They've both died.
Now assume they have Sentinel/Vengeance. PLD loses 10000*0.6=6k which is a reduction of 40% (40% hp left). WAR loses 12500*0.7=8750, which is a reduction of 30% (30% left).

[karateorangutang]

At the end of the day, it's the Official Forums, the NA one at that. People whine and whine and whine here, it's where the vocal minority get their frustration out by rallying together with the other minor few who bother to waste their time in here, or are like me, at work and bored and lookin for people to make fun of

WAR is fine. they arent going to change it. PLD wont change, DRK may see a buff or some changes to their CD synergy, since Evasion buff on a Parry reliant Tank makes no real sense. Other then that you're all throwing leaves in the wind, it'll fall on deaf ears <3 Have fun arguing over nothing

Good argument. Next time bring an argument. Citing SE wont fix it cause they don't care is ineffectual, silly, and ignorant. Thanks for the lol's on your posts though.

Addtionally,

NOONE IN THIS THREAD IS SAYING WAR IS BAD!!
NOONE IS SAYING THEY SHOULD BE NERFED IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM!!

We are discussing outside of the box ways to bring the other 2 tanks inline with War so that people can play the class the want to play and not the class that they are being requested to play.

[FallenWings]

Another rarely pointed out fact. +1

The tank forums are so sloshed with bad information with their telephone game effects.

Quick basic math.

It shouldn't necessarily matter based on this logic (Feel free to enlighten me if I'm wrong):

Both Tanks take 10 000 Damage.

Defiance

12500 - (10000 - 3000{Vengeance}) = 5500(44% of 12 500)

(Defiance+Vengeance+Inner Beast)
10 000 -30% = 7000
7000 -20% = 5600

12 500 - 5600 = 6900 (55.2%)


Grit

10000 - ((10 000 - 2000{Grit}) - 2400{ShadowWall}) = 4400(44% of 10 000)

(Grit+ShadowWall+Shadowskin)
10 000 -20% = 8000
8000 -30% = 5600
5600 -20% = 4480

10 000 - 4480 = 5520(55.2%)

They're pretty equal regardless if you're stacking it on Defiance or ShO/Grit.

As we all know Warriors need 5% more healing because +25%HP and +20%Increased Spell Healing =/= 20% Damage Reduction.

If you guys weren't pointing out that Defiance was better than ShO/Grit then I'm sorry I have eyes for decoration. Please carry on.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Not really Equal.

Vengeance is 120 second CD. Shadowwall is 180 second CD.
Shadowwall also does not do damage like vengeance.

Shadowskin is 90 second CD, Inner Beast heals AND is 17.5 second CD if you do not cast your stuff. Which is way better because you have it when you need it all the time.

I would love Shadowskin at 6 second duration and 17.5 (Or 20.) cd and healed.
I would love Shadowwall if it had a less CD and also had an additional effect.

[Nanaho]

Good argument. Next time bring an argument. Citing SE wont fix it cause they don't care is ineffectual, silly, and ignorant. Thanks for the lol's on your posts though.

Addtionally,

NOONE IN THIS THREAD IS SAYING WAR IS BAD!!
NOONE IS SAYING THEY SHOULD BE NERFED IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM!!

We are discussing outside of the box ways to bring the other 2 tanks inline with War so that people can play the class the want to play and not the class that they are being requested to play.

lololol, Caps lock, Cruise control for "im right you're wrong neener neener"

[karateorangutang]

lololol, Caps lock, Cruise control for "im right you're wrong neener neener"

Ok, now you are trolling.

Good day.

[TouchandFeel]

@Launched

Stacking % mitigation is multiplicative not additive.
ShO equates to damage received multiplied by 0.8. With Sentinel it then reduces damage by (0.8 X 0.4) or 32% additional reduction to the 20% from ShO for a total of 52% damage reduction, not the 60% that it would be if it was additive.
Simply put Sentinel is 40% of 80%, not just an additional 40%.

Vengeance is not effected by this because Defiance is not a % mitigation buff, therefore it does not result in the 30% reduction from Vengeance being multiplied by another % to get its final effective % reduction, it is just simply the stated 30% (unless stacked with IB).

The eHP provided by the stances are virtually equivalent, that is true but one results in lessening other % mitigation abilities by roughly 20% due to the multiplicative nature of stacking buffs/debuffs in this game.

I don't believe that anyone is saying that Defiance is inherently a better tank stance than the others, I believe what is being said is that the higher % reduction in the descriptions for some of the PLD and DRK defensive cd's is deceptive due to multiplicative calculation.

[Phoenicia]

War is also a 100% lock down spot in every raid group, which is the only real problem. War is fun to play and rewarding.

I have WAR/PLD/DRK geared and 60. WAR is the bomb.com

In my post I'm not arguing WAR's "superiority". I am just saying it is "silly" to pigeonhole this great class into the OT spot when it can FULLY FUNCTION as MT and the other tanks can FULLY function as OT.

WAR MT / PLD OT is actually a DPS gain over PLD MT / WAR OT. If say your group is running PLD and WAR in say A4, let the WAR MT since it WILL do more MT damage than MT PLD, it WILL mitigate more damage than the MT PLD, the OT PLD WILL do relevantly good DPS, OT PLD can actually put clemency to use on orbs, OT PLD will actually use its shield when tanking add and in quarantine! PLD won't have to level DRK to be "useful".
A DRK/PLD group can also function just as fine (sacrificing raid Storm Path only! which, let's face it, only eases on the need of using Sacred Soil on the SCH's side.) with a NIN in group.

Fun Fact: A lot of the "big raid wide" damage happens when Storm Path is down and cannot be applied to boss. Think As1 where both bosses jump.

My whole point in here is that if we get out of the "stick WAR into OT and let PLD or DRK MT" idea, we get far greater raid composition options that are competitive!

[Launched]

@Launched

% mitigation is multiplicative not additive.
ShO equates to damage received multiplied by 0.8. With Sentinel it then reduces damage by (0.8 X 0.4) or 32% additional reduction to the 20% from ShO for a total of 52% damage reduction, not the 60% that it would be if it was additive. Simply put Sentinel is 40% of 80%, not just an additional 40%.

And my point that is with how tank stances work, a PLD still reduces 40% of the incoming damage with Sentinel while a WAR reduces 30%. The maths doesn't lie, the PLD isn't taking only 2% less damage or whatever you originally said. Tank stances increase eHP to the same amount, so you're mitigating by whatever percentage is on the skill you use.