Do Warriors have any single disadvantage?

[Fue]

If it was a great help for keeping the raid alive, it could be a fair trade

Problem is when you already have competent healers even that advantage is thrown out of the window

[SirTaint]

WARs have

Unlimited TP - equilibrium plus their best GCDs cost 0 tp
Highest burst damage
-10 damage down for the raid (Stack with INT and STR down)
Slashing damage up for DRK PLD NIN
Best stance dance which can be used to increase damage or mitigation instantly
Shortest CD timers

War is also a 100% lock down spot in every raid group, which is the only real problem. War is fun to play and rewarding.

[Fue]

WARs have

Unlimited TP - equilibrium plus their best GCDs cost 0 tp
Highest burst damage
-10 damage down for the raid (Stack with INT and STR down)
Slashing damage up for DRK PLD NIN
Best stance dance which can be used to increase damage or mitigation instantly
Shortest CD timers

War is also a 100% lock down spot in every raid group, which is the only real problem. War is fun to play and rewarding.

Nicely summed up

And yes War having a guaranteed spot in a group is kinda big deal since running something like DRK/PLD combination is very unoptimal.

[karateorangutang]

It does. Clemency, Stoneskin, Divine Veil, Str debuff.

Paladins don't do as much dps as warriors—this is true—but they bring a different type of raid utility that, depending on the group, could be useful. I know my AS1 group would benefit tremendously from an off tank with the ability to help heal / stoneskin a party member with prey attached to them.

People are so fixated on the max dps or gtfo mentality that they're neglecting a big portion of the classes skill set.

Too bad none of this type of utility is needed right now.

That is the basis of this argument. SE/SP > clemency/stoneskin/divine veil in the current raid meta.

[Tila]

In a world where Warriors get Storm's Path

DRK get something similar whose only issue is that they need to MT to use it. This isnt an example of WAR being to much, rather, a case that this ability needs to be fixed for DRK.

the highest DPS by a significant margin over DRK and a HUGE margin over PLD

Not when MTing, and even then its not as big as people make out to be unless the fight has boss vulnerability portions.

Where they have an even huger margin over the other two tanks in dungeons without ninjas

Oh no, over gearing casual content marginalizes it

and entirely comparable mitigation that allows them to tank all fights,

PLD and DRK are both better MT's. PLD and DRK are also capable of OTing, just not as good as WAR.

why wouldn't they be the best tank by a huge margin?

Because they arent, and you're just mad and failing to realize PLD has more support than WAR, which in a "lets clear everything uber fast" meta isn't as popular as the tank with more damage or the tank with a bit of damage and a bit of support. That's not a failing of game system, that's keeping tanks distinct.

The reality of it all is that there will always be a best. PLD is best physical MT, DRK is best magical MT, WAR is best OT. The healers all have their own things they're best at, and there is currently a bit of anger concerning DRG being the best DPS.

I would not mind if esoterics was not AF2.

Also, if WAR wasn't a better MT than the other two as well, simply though that stacking classes = lower LB and that WAR is such a good OT. There is no reason not to bring a WAR mt if you want.

But thats false. What does a WAR MT bring over the other two? Assuming in your scenario you have a WAR MT and WAR OT.

Also, I imagine that the AF2 stuff will only last for this alexander raid. Look back at ARR and you'll see that the first bit of content had that class locked gear (not to such an extent I'll give you that), but after the AF it normalized into the gear all being shared. All the raid gear from ARR, tank wise, was shared among PLD and WAR. Sans the weapons. Even then, the Alexander gear is all shared between the tanks. You gear one tank in Alexander gear, you've geared them all.

Nicely summed up

And yes War having a guaranteed spot in a group is kinda big deal since running something like DRK/PLD combination is very unoptimal.

I suppose the bigger issue is that we didn't really need the DRK at all. Other MMO have this same issue: tanks fill the fewest number of slots, there will always be a best MT and a best OT. If there can be said to be any one major fault of trinity, its that it doesn't suit multiple tank classes. If WAR is shifted away from the OT position, then what? It can't MT as well as the other two. If WAR is no longer the best OT, then DRK or PLD will be and we'll have the same issue as anow, but with another class.

[Fue]

I suppose the bigger issue is that we didn't really need the DRK at all. Other MMO have this same issue: tanks fill the fewest number of slots, there will always be a best MT and a best OT. If there can be said to be any one major fault of trinity, its that it doesn't suit multiple tank classes. If WAR is shifted away from the OT position, then what? It can't MT as well as the other two. If WAR is no longer the best OT, then DRK or PLD will be and we'll have the same issue as anow, but with another class.

War can MT just fine, i dont get why people question it still.

[karateorangutang]

@Tila

I guess my question is what makes WAR a worse MT than either DRK or PLD? Mitigation is similar even if the timing is slightly tighter.

Secondly, SE and SP are both better support abilities than DRK or PLD have to offer for raid wide utility. Maybe im wrong here but id take 10% slashing vulnerablity and 10% mitigation raidwide most of the time over a heal and 10% targetted mitigation with a cast time. Not when healing the new raids doesn't seem to be the issue at hand. I'm not saying tanks don't have their niche's, but WAR brings a ton to the table as both MT and OT.

I would love to see PLD become a true blue support OT, but I guess that's just dreams of mine.

[pandabearcat]

The main problem is that WAR is so "universal".

Its damage buff helps ALL tanks (and ninjas slightly).
Its damage debuff affects ALL damage.
Its mitigation affects ALL damage.
Its mitigation is also up for ALL busters.

What the others do with their long CD abilities is have better autoattack coverage...thats it. Also DRK for discoid, though since they are roughtly 55sec apart a war can easily double IB as well, possibly only needing one if timed correctly.

I think a good solution is this:

1. All tanks bring "10% target damage down". They are unique buffs that stack with each other. So you still want 2 different tanks, just doesn't matter which ones you bring.
2. Slashing debuff should be something all tanks bring as well. All melee types bring their own damage buff, and every team has a WAR because all tanks could use the slashing damage buff.

[SpookyGhost]

1. All tanks bring "10% target damage down". They are unique buffs that stack with each other. So you still want 2 different tanks, just doesn't matter which ones you bring.
2. Slashing debuff should be something all tanks bring as well. All melee types bring their own damage buff, and every team has a WAR because all tanks could use the slashing damage buff.

This is a good solution, but an unfortunate one. Would be nice if we didn't have to homogenize the tanks, and instead were able to give them all something unique (and important) to bring to the table. Path and Eye are both good debuffs, PLD/DRK don't necessarily need copies of those abilities but something as worthwhile.

[pandabearcat]

This is not homogenization in terms of "making the classes so similar their playstyle is indistinguishable".

The classes retain their individuality. It is simply a numbers balance.

Its simpler than saying "pld take a bit less damage now from magic" or "drk now take a bit less from physical" or "bring up potency a bit for all the tanks that aren't war".