NIN -- how does everyone else feel we're doing?

[Bearrier]

This is starting to become a cyclical argument with no real substance. With your logic with the equality of mnks and nins in terms of dps (which is not true), mnks are fine where they are because they bring just as much utility to the raid as nins.

No because Monks require ramp up time. Ninja's biggest strength aside from the two big buffs we give is that we only need to have slashing debuff up (war should be doing this for you) and have huton up (Armor Crush makes this trivial). Monks have to get GL3 every time there is a downtime of longer than 10 seconds. Dragoons as well need Blood of the Dragon up. Also Ninja's DPS isn't 100 behind if mudra lag didn't exist. Ninjas would probably be 50-70 behind instead.

[Layke]

It is helping, but it isn't that big compared to TA and Goad. TA boosts the party's dps by 3%ish last time I checked. Piercing isn't adding that much. It only benefits 2 people in your static if you're running a progression based party comp (2 melee, 1 support, 1 caster). Goad does help a lot especially in A2 Savage and onwards. Monk has better AOE than DRG unless DRG doesn't run out of TP.

TA provides a little less than 2% additional damage over the course of a fight, assuming it's used on CD every minute. A DRG makes a BRD/MCH do 10% more damage for the entire fight. That's a big buff to someone's damage.

Yes, Goad is decent, but all of the other melee classes already have ways to restore their TP. Monks have TWO means of this. Both DRG and MNK also don't TP starve as fast a NINs do. Hell, let NIN cast Goad on themselves and you'd help alleviate/fix some of their issues right there.

[Leonus]

Drgs are not required for raid groups. People just think they are. If your drg is pulling 100-200 dps more than your mnk, that more than likely point more issues towards you person playing mnk.

The mnk in my raid group is damn good, and goes toe to toe with me.

I haven't taken my nin into raids since HW, but it is 60, and the dps difference between nin and mnk isn't huge.

Edit: Mnk has better AoE damage than drg.

[Layke]

Drgs are not required for raid groups. People just think they are. If your drg is pulling 100-200 dps more than your mnk, that more than likely point more issues towards you person playing mnk.

The mnk in my raid group is damn good, and goes toe to toe with me.

I haven't taken my nin into raids since HW, but it is 60, and the dps difference between nin and mnk isn't huge.

Edit: Mnk has better AoE damage than drg.

For cutting edge progression, DRGs are basically required. I think every Static I've seen that has downed atleast A2S has had one. Their DPS is just so much higher than the other melee at the moment that if a DRG is losing/tied to another melee it means they are simply not as good as they should be.

[Uppers]

No because Monks require ramp up time. Ninja's biggest strength aside from the two big buffs we give is that we only need to have slashing debuff up (war should be doing this for you) and have huton up (Armor Crush makes this trivial). Monks have to get GL3 every time there is a downtime of longer than 10 seconds. Dragoons as well need Blood of the Dragon up. Also Ninja's DPS isn't 100 behind if mudra lag didn't exist. Ninjas would probably be 50-70 behind instead.

Nin should not be reliant on two classes (war and brd/mch) to do optimal dps and to sustain it. Your downtime of GL3 is something that is alleviated by your chakra. Blood of the Dragon is something that will be kept up just like nin's huton through armor crush. Finally, mudra lag exists and is very much present in the game so to be hypothetical and estimate how much dps more a nin SHOULD have is not applicable because it doesn't happen in game.

[Uppers]

Drgs are not required for raid groups. People just think they are. If your drg is pulling 100-200 dps more than your mnk, that more than likely point more issues towards you person playing mnk.

The mnk in my raid group is damn good, and goes toe to toe with me.

I haven't taken my nin into raids since HW, but it is 60, and the dps difference between nin and mnk isn't huge.

Edit: Mnk has better AoE damage than drg.

Maybe you are a bad drg.

[Leonus]

For cutting edge progression, DRGs are basically required. I think every Static I've seen that has downed atleast A2S has had one. Their DPS is just so much higher than the other melee at the moment that if a DRG is losing/tied to another melee it means they are simply not as good as they should be.

I have found the opposite. Most people I have come across on nin or mnk get smashed by drg dps, and are not as good as the could be.

@uppers.

Maybe everyone isn't as good as they think they are with their respective melee class.

Even more likely that you yourself, are a bad nin, than it is that I am a bad drg. Since we're taking shots.

[Subucnimorning]

TA provides a little less than 2% additional damage over the course of a fight, assuming it's used on CD every minute. A DRG makes a BRD/MCH do 10% more damage for the entire fight. That's a big buff to someone's damage.

Yes, Goad is decent, but all of the other melee classes already have ways to restore their TP. Hell, let NIN cast Goad on themselves and you'd help alleviate/fix some of their issues right there.

People really do seem to exaggerate the numbers that TA provides, it really isn't a massive increase people seem to think it is. Reading posts in the different Ninja threads you would think it's a permanent 10% buff to everyone's damage. For an entire group it is around a 100 dps increase at the higher end with current DPS (assuming used on cooldown).

Agree completely on Goad, should be able to use it on ourselves considering we need it most with our TP issues.

[Dante_V]

The entire premise of most of these arguments exist in complete vacuums. Ninja is completely fine as it is damage wise. As a raid leader I am specifically looking for a ninja over a monk (although that doesn't mean we won't accept a monk who is good) because the reality is that potentials are NOT actuals. The potential dps a class can put out within 50-60 dps is completely irrelevant to me. I'm more concerned with the player playing the class (actual ability and dps in real situations) and confidence and understanding in that class, than some potential in a complete vacuum. IMO monks are the worst off ATM as one of their main draws (int debuff) can now be used by the drk.

[Layke]

The entire premise of most of these arguments exist in complete vacuums. Ninja is completely fine as it is damage wise. As a raid leader I am specifically looking for a ninja over a monk (although that doesn't mean we won't accept a monk who is good) because the reality is that potentials are NOT actuals. The potential dps a class can put out within 50-60 dps is completely irrelevant to me. I'm more concerned with the player playing the class (actual ability and dps in real situations) and confidence and understanding in that class, than some potential in a complete vacuum. IMO monks are the worst off ATM as one of their main draws (int debuff) can now be used by the drk.

Actual parses have shown DRG's tearing other classes apart though...