Dragoon Punished at lvl 58 - What needs to be done with Wheeling Thrust

[whiskeybravo]

Go ahead, tell us what Wheeling Thrust does for the job that F&C didn't already.

Don't give me that "not 60 yet" bullcrap either, because Geirskogul does nothing to change the premise of this thread.

It adds a dynamic that did not previously exist on any job. It demands an awareness that no other job demands. It's an entirely unique mechanic.

And yes, Geirskogul does change everything. For one, you stop worrying about which attack procs, you spend much less time mentally processing which attack you need to execute because you've seen it 1000 times. Suddenly you worry more about the timer, do you have enough to burn gk? is BotD coming off CD soon? Target disconnect now you have to skip something to do a quick IDC or TTT to maintain BotD, even ignoring positionals before you lose it. The list goes on, which is why I said you forget you'll ever had a problem with Wheeling.

[Neyka]

Wheeling Thrust is entirely a level 58-59 problem. At 60, you need WT to get Geirskogul, and it ceases to matter.

Is WT a bad design? Yes.
Does it affect gameplay/viability at 60? No.
Is it time to accept it and get over it? Yes.

There is very little I would ask to be changed for dragoon at 60 right now. Energy should be spent on other things in my opinion.

[Leonus]

Not a valid comparison. BotD works just fine UNTIL you get Wheeling Thrust, which adds complexity ...

Idk what you're talking about, BotD works JUST FINE after you get Wheeling thrust.

Prove to me, other than your own personal opinion, that BotD now fails to work after obtaining any of the abilities gated by it.

Which works like WM, I gating your new abilities behind a new mechanic that if you really hated it, you could NOT use it but at the cost of your own peak performance.

[justinjarjar]

Wait increasing complexity with time is bad (ie get BftD, then a skill to extend it, then positional, then get a reducer)? I am confused why this is bad design, makes perfect sense to me. I mean the game is meant to be played at lvl 60 and if you really want to you can keep dps up without extending BftD before 60. At this point the complaints are pointless the only possible problem is now no longer even an issue the pots (which I was still not sure should have been buffed as much but since it is not going to complain too much).

Edit: Also my point being that we have four positionals only two of which people seem to care about, while monk in the same instances where you cannot hit positionals gets just as shafted if not more so. Since all of their skills are positionals, I agree it needed some not necessarily 200. Which it is so what does it matter now? It is here to stay (and no reason to get rid of it) I am saying from a 60 top down view the skill is in the right spot, no shiz you lose dps when you miss the positional that is not the point how is the current design bad beyond WWHHHAAAAAHHH I have one rng skill.?

[whiskeybravo]

At this point the complaints are pointless the only possible problem is now no longer even an issue the pots (which I was still not sure should have been buffed as much but since it is not going to complain too much).

It's still a dps hit if you miss them, just not as bad. I mean there are times when you simply can't hit them due to mechanics, we didn't need to be punished that much for forced positional misses such as picking up adds A1/A4 and a hell of a lot of aoe dodging in A4 (where I personally seem to miss the most in the last phase)

150+200+360 / 3 = 236.6
150+200+360+290 / 4 = 250
150+200+360+100 / 4 = 202.50
150+200+360+200 / 4 = 227.50

I still don't think it should be less than the old rotation, but probably evens out with proper jump/gk usage.

[Fynlar]

It adds a dynamic that did not previously exist on any job. It demands an awareness that no other job demands. It's an entirely unique mechanic.

I'm talking about what Wheeling Thrust does FOR the job. As in, benefits.

All you have mentioned are costs.

Idk what you're talking about, BotD works JUST FINE after you get Wheeling thrust.

Prove to me, other than your own personal opinion, that BotD now fails to work after obtaining any of the abilities gated by it.

It's not that it fails to work, it's that by unlocking a new ability I now have a DPS/time loss because I can't just automatically move to the flank for the 4th hit. And even if I have mastered it, I have gained nothing by doing so.

It's similar to the issue BLMs face with the way Firestarter works; you can't make full use of Firestarter without intentionally delaying your Fire casts because the proc doesn't show up until after you've already started casting the next Fire. Except delaying your Fire casts in order to catch every Firestarter proc would be an even more severe DPS loss, so nobody does that.

The thing is, far fewer people complain about Firestarter because it is still a net benefit as opposed to not having it at all.

Obtaining Wheeling Thrust afforded us no such luxury. There is no reason for it to be there at all and it adds nothing to the job besides complexity.

I would have said I don't know how people can support complexity just for the sake of complexity, but then I remember what forums I'm on and it all suddenly makes sense.

[Leonus]

I'm talking about what Wheeling Thrust does FOR the job. As in, benefits.

All you have mentioned are costs.



It's not that it fails to work, it's that by unlocking a new ability I now have a DPS/time loss because I can't just automatically move to the flank for the 4th hit.

And even if I have mastered it, I have gained nothing by doing so.

You basically have 2 seconds to move to flank/rear. Which takes less time if you are standing in the proper position for minimal movement between the two and neither of which matters if you're fighting something 1 on 1. If you just so happen to be out of position chances are that the mnk or nin was out of position for something too. So you didn't gain anything from it, the objective is to try and hit jt so you can maintain you maximum benefit from the entirety of the BotD mechanics. People just want upsidesm with no downsides it seems.

[Fynlar]

People just want upsidesm with no downsides it seems.

No, not really. What we would like is something that doesn't only have downsides. There is no upside here.

[Leonus]

No, not really. What we would like is something that doesn't only have downsides. There is no upside here.

Because some people are only looking at one move and not the entire "package" of BotD.

[Fynlar]

Because some people are only looking at one move and not the entire "package" of BotD.

That might be because this thread is not about the "entire package"

It's about Wheeling Thrust and how its introduction only serves to potentially drag down that "package" rather than build upon it in any meaningful way.

This thread isn't about how DRGs are at the top of the DPS ladder and therefore somehow suddenly loses its rights to complain about obvious design flaws, but there was no shortage of people in this thread pointing that out like it somehow pertained to the subject at hand.