Dark Knight, or Paladin?

[Freyyy]

snip

But PLDs are still not shit. Yeah they may have a lower enmity ATM and lower damage but it's not THAT bad. And the advantage you're stating with Berserk and fights with downtimes affect everyone with offensive cooldowns. The same could be said with PLD and FoF. Berserk grants better burst damage yeah. But even when a fight has downtimes you rarely only hit the boss for 20 seconds before the next downtime, it lasts generally 1-2 min.

[pandabearcat]

I mean the point is not that PLD are "awful" or "no place in raid teams" like it was in 2.0 warrior.

The point is simply that for the most part they are worse. Not really extremely worse, just quantifiably worse for most content.

[ZhycranaDranix]

But PLDs are still not shit. Yeah they may have a lower enmity ATM and lower damage but it's not THAT bad.

Not the bad , but still bad.

-Outside of our tank stance:
(If any of your DPS are pushing over 1200) You might as well forget Royal Authority and spam that Halone because that Drag/Mnk is pulling up on you fast. It's not worth potential agro loss.
As an OT this is perfect though. Sword Oath with it's added pot. Is great but still doesn't add raw Attack boost!
FoF is great in Sword Oath, but in Shield Oath you're basically making up what the other tanks do already.

Our Physical CDs are still the best in the game and our physical mitigation can't be matched....... somewhat.
WARs still have a very high HP pool with being able to use IB pretty much at will
DRK still has 30% damage reduction on top of 10% reduction , which is pretty much a Sentinel for them. Also INT debuff is great for parties without MNKs but seeing as MNKs still hold a top portion of raid spots , this advantage has been slightly reduced, but still great though.

I also don't agree with worse for most content for PLDs either

Rav EX and Bis EX- are pretty much any ones game. No cleaves in Bismarck and the Blade in Ravana is physical which is PLDs specialty

AS1- PLDs handle the tank busters pretty easily with a 45%ish damage reduction stemming from Sentinel and Stoneskinning ourselves before plasma
AS2- Bulwark and Awareness are very handy , not to mention the RNG for the shield is up'd greatly here.
I have not seen game play from 3 or 4 yet.

We're somewhere on the back end but not that far behind. If Royal Authority generated enmity it would make us pretty vital considering then you could Skill Speed Build a tank and use Sword Oath once you've established agro in Shield Oath, and re-apply Halone De buff when needed without having to worry about agro.

[Nico_Of_Awesome]

I always live by the creed play what you enjoy the most because it'll get fixed eventually if broken. Forcing yourself to play something you like less for the sake of efficiency (unless you're in a bleeding edge content FC.) is silly.

[Giantbane]

-Outside of our tank stance:
(If any of your DPS are pushing over 1200) You might as well forget Royal Authority and spam that Halone because that Drag/Mnk is pulling up on you fast. It's not worth potential agro loss.

And?

It's the same for a DRK. If a DRK isn't in tank stance, they need to be using power slash quite a bit more often in order to hold threat against any DPS that high. Having to use Power Slash instead of one of the siphon combos (SE/DL) is actually a bigger loss of damage for the DRK than a PLD swapping from RA to RoH. For a DRK, mana is damage. By not using a siphon combo, they're losing out on 1/2 of a DA + SE boost they could have used (about 120 potency over DL).

WAR is the only one that can really hold threat outside of their tank stance without much sacrifice to their offensive power. But that's because they're losing almost all of their mitigation to do this. It's unlikely they'll be using SP and they lose access to IB. PLD keeps all of their other mitigation abilities outside of Shield Oath while the DRK only loses the self heal on SE.

At least this aspect of the 3 tanks seems pretty reasonably balanced.

[Drtoxicmedica]

I don\\\\'t mind the concept of MP management at all. I just find the way it\\\\'s implemented on the DRK kinda...clunky? I don\\\\'t know how put it exactly, it just doesn\\\\'t feel like it flows naturally and the MP costs for a lot of spells just seems all over the place. I mean, DA+DP eats up damn near half my MP bar for what, exactly? Grit eats up all that mana for what, exactly? That\\\\'s what I mean by there not being much payoff to it. It doesn\\\\'t feel like it\\\\'s adding anything, it\\\\'s just...there.

I felt the same at first but now it\\'s so second nature. You get a feel for it. Have done ravana ex with 3 tanks because warrior and dark knight dps are that good lol with 2 healers mind you. You can\\'t be afraid to let your mp sink to 20ish percent. That and really dark mind is the only cd your gonna buff. Dark dance with dark arts is a waste of mp.the biggest problem is tp bleed if you don\\'t have a nin on some fight lol

[Valkyrie-Amber]

.... how can any tank have agro issues end game if geared right? maybe gear 1 fending accessory and that's it especially on PLD to we have a shield.
ATM though this is true best MTs either dark or PLD while best OT is war due to slashing debuff no discussion.

[nyttyn]

you won't run into threat issues if all you do is 123 threat in shield oats

the difficult comes in when you're trying to use sword oath at all with competent DPS.

essentially it's like a double tax on Paladins - their threat combo deals considerably less damage than the other tanks, along with them having no insane snap aggro (dark arts power slash, berserk MAN MODE burst opening), meaning that in spite of royal athority being 340 potency plus sword oath potentially giving comparable DPS on paper, in practice paladins are forced to repeatedly perform far more subpar threat combos than the other tanks, which in turn does less damage than the threat combos of the other two.

[Freyyy]

^ This. I think they should just increase RoH to 280 or 300 potency.

[Giantbane]

you won't run into threat issues if all you do is 123 threat in shield oats

the difficult comes in when you're trying to use sword oath at all with competent DPS.

essentially it's like a double tax on Paladins - their threat combo deals considerably less damage than the other tanks, along with them having no insane snap aggro (dark arts power slash, berserk MAN MODE burst opening), meaning that in spite of royal athority being 340 potency plus sword oath potentially giving comparable DPS on paper, in practice paladins are forced to repeatedly perform far more subpar threat combos than the other tanks, which in turn does less damage than the threat combos of the other two.

As above, the DRK loses more damage by doing his threat combo than the PLD does when he uses RoH instead of RA. The RA combo also generates more threat than the DRK's siphon combos (including Darkside and the extra damage that siphon's mana drain will give you). Circle of scorn also has a threat modifier.

I fail to see how a PLD in Sword Oath is any worse off on threat generation than a DRK with Grit off.