Dark Knight, or Paladin?

[Faytte]

PLD can still parse close to WARs. The recorded differences are mostly a consequence of fight mechanics. Ravana Ex is fantastic for Warriors (who deal most of their damage through ability use and have high periods of burst) because of how Liberation works, while it's "bleh" for Paladins who simply can't pump out the same level of burst, dependent as they are on Sword Oath for a solid chunk of their damage.

I'm not sure on your basis of close. Most parses i see out of savage have paladins 300+ dps behind the other tanks. Even dummy doll parses are 200+ behind (please, dont link pareses that are not at least 4 to 5 minutes long. 2 minute parses are largely dismissed). Paladins were doing so at the start of content, but this have largely changed as more and more tanks (even paladins) are tanking in offensive stances. A1 Savage and A2 Savage basically require this, or are not negatively impacted without it. Paladins however cannot keep aggro very long staying in sword oath vs great dps--meaning they have to swap back to shield oath commonly. Sword Oath, unlike raw darkside or deliverence, has no effect on the abilities that generate enmity, which couples with their lower raw enmity generation than either other class leads them to basically still being married to Rage of Halone. Rage of Halone was built at a time that it was ALL paladins spammed--your only combo. Fact Paladins had poor enmity was fine, cause all you did was spam the enmity combo.


This is not the case anymore--so largely as a tank the times you can royal safely are pretty small (or your dps are very lazy and not good--I'm only speaking from savage static experience here).

Paladins are parsing lower than dark and dark is lower than war, they threat the least out of each of them, and their only short cooldown cd(60 seconds or less) is locked to physical only (Darks have 2 physical short cds, 1 magical. War has a short cd skin/rampart and burst self heal).

This becomes pronounced in A1 Savage where dark knights and wars can pop 2 defensives or more with every tank buster (a war can pop IB/Vengeance every time, raw intuition to help with autos after and equilibirum to heal back up. Dark can do skin + mind every buster(and one with wall), dark dance to help with autos and have a soul eater ready for some health).

Paladins can pop rampart every buster and on one of them, throw in sentinel in for one). Bulwark can be up every OTHER buster to help with autos, and clemency is interrupted by the buster, so its irrelevant (starting the cast after the fact----too long, healers will full heal you before you finish 3 seconds. Not to mention, it prevents you from blocking which is why you have bulwark up).

Its a class in a really terrible spot at the moment, where basically you pay for your 'great mitigation' with lowered aggro and damage, but your great mitigation does not always apply or apply meaningfully--which reduces you to...

Hallowed Ground.

Or being an off tank and healing the main tank--cause I know thats what every paladin wanted to do when they rolled Paladin..

[Freyyy]

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I was not speaking about tank-stance DPS. It's clear that PLD is behind the two others. But while doing pure DPS (meaning sword oath and stuff) they are all pretty balanced (and you can do that while tanking when you don't need the extra mitigation). WAR just has an advantage TP-wise and in terms of brutal burst-damage, but in terms of sustained DPS, considering the PLD and DRK can benefit from the slashing debuff, they all have potentially near the same DPS. DRK has the highest potencies because he doesn't have any damage increasing CD (only Darkside which is awesome). WAR has the lowest potencies in their combos and slower (but harder) auto-attacks but they have Maim, dat Berserk and Fell Cleave/Decimate for high burst damage. PLD is middle-ground potency-wise but has the fastest auto-attacks and the AMAZING FoF. Don't underestimate a SwO PLD's auto-attacks.

I was main WAR before switching to DRK and I still love my axe. I'm a big WAR fan since the beginning, but it's a fact, even if Berserk does give +50% damage, unlike I first said, it's still inferior to FoF over the course of an entire fight. Tho it's true that the WAR still has the insane burst damage advantage and that's why we love them too. And I never said Berserk was bad. It's amazingly good too.

Even if PLD's DPS stance doesn't increase weaponskill damage, a good PLD with a good amount of STR should still be able to keep agro while being in SwO and using Goring Blade and RA.

I often see your posts saying that PLD is bad right now, and I disagree. They don't only bring HG, they still have the best physical damage mitigation, and still have great utility. Divine Veil is some really good shit and Clemency can sometimes save lives with a bit of anticipation. Don't forget that it's also still the easiest tank to play and that they still are the safest one to pick as a main tank when discovering a new encounter. It's still a great job. It just doesn't "shine" as much as it used to be, and I'm happy about that, it means that the 3 tanks are pretty well-balanced (with DRK having some slightly underwhelming things but I'm pretty sure SE will fix that some times in the future and it doesn't prevents it to be the best tank for magic damage dealing bosses).

[Freyyy]

snip

Just saw your second post and I must answer to this as well. If you saw PLDs doing 300+ DPS behind the other tanks, the problem comes from the player behind the PLD, not from the job. A good PLD is not THAT far behind. Depending on the encounter it can even be in the same range. And on dummy, the 3 tanks are doing pretty much similar sustained DPS. PLD may be a bit lower but it's just a bit, no more than that.

My static's PLD (yes we run PLD + DRK and it's fine, tho I miss the ability of being able to apply the slashing debuff instead of our NIN but hell, I love playing DRK, he loves playing PLD, we have no DPS issues with our current comp in savage, so I stick to DRK. I would switch to WAR only if it's a 100% necessity) has no issues using RA combo while keeping enmity even with hardcore DPS. Don't forget that RA comes from Savage Blade. It still builds some enmity and the simple fact of dealing high damage because he's STR specced with hybrid accessories gives him enough room to fit RA.

You're exaggerating a lot when it comes to saying that PLD is "in a bad spot" or just "bad". It's true that against magic tank busters, they are a bit behind, but they still can tank efficiently, and their damage are nowhere near as low as you tend to think.

[Faytte]

I'm 186 on both pal and war(and dark for the matter). Hive weapons across the board. I can dummy parse 1k on a four minute parse on war, 850 on dark (run out a tp) and low 700s on paladin (run out a tp). Paladin dps isn't hard by any degree but people showing a quick two minute parse as proof of anything is pretty mute. You more or stay on the boss none stop in a1 Savage, although with run breaks let regen tp(so either drk or pal running out on a dummy is moot). To be clear once either tank ran out of to stopped the parse (which is why I do four minute parses).

[Faytte]

The only busters atm in Alex are magic (watched all of a3 Savage tonight on the left twitch stream and while there's decent physical there's no busters perse). Paladins are not good at dealing with common heavy damage sources however :long cds mean they generally can pop one XD per mechanic (or two of its physical via sheltron). Meanwhile in a1 Savage a war can pop ib and vengeance for the magic buster each and every time, along with thrill of battle and equilibrium...

[Freyyy]

I'm 186 on both pal and war(and dark for the matter). Hive weapons across the board. I can dummy parse 1k on a four minute parse on war, 850 on dark (run out a tp) and low 700s on paladin (run out a tp). Paladin dps isn't hard by any degree but people showing a quick two minute parse as proof of anything is pretty mute. You more or stay on the boss none stop in a1 Savage, although with run breaks let regen tp(so either drk or pal running out on a dummy is moot). To be clear once either tank ran out of to stopped the parse (which is why I do four minute parses).

In an organized team you won't run out of TP. You either get Goad or if more than one people needs TP there is a BRD or MCH. And every fights as for now has downtimes which makes you recover TP. A1 savage for example, when the boss is in the air, he's not targettable for easily 10-15 sec. Without being out of TP, DRK parses equally to WAR and PLD parses just a little bit lower. Parsing out of TP is invalid.

[Allyrion]

I'm 186 on both pal and war(and dark for the matter). Hive weapons across the board. I can dummy parse 1k on a four minute parse on war, 850 on dark (run out a tp) and low 700s on paladin (run out a tp). Paladin dps isn't hard by any degree but people showing a quick two minute parse as proof of anything is pretty mute. You more or stay on the boss none stop in a1 Savage, although with run breaks let regen tp(so either drk or pal running out on a dummy is moot). To be clear once either tank ran out of to stopped the parse (which is why I do four minute parses).

I don't get the last sentence. Are you saying you stop the parse when you run out of TP?
But then you say that's why you do four minute parses, and you should definitely run out of TP before then.

You're right that 2 minute parses aren't the best. A lot of that is opening burst and dps doesn't stabilize within that time frame.
That said, I have never seen anyone acknowledge a parse that goes beyond the TP limit. I'm with Freyy, those are invalid.

Dummy parses are not meant to simulate real fights. While some bosses are basically target dummies for a tank, many aren't.
A dummy parse isn't more valid now that we're on A1 than it was when we were on Ravana Ex.
It's a basic measure of dps in a completely isolated fashion.
Running out of TP is trying to simulate a specific fight scenario, which doesn't meet that universal standard dummy parses are generally used for.

If you're doing 4 minute parses, you have to make sure TP doesn't play a factor on the damage output.
It should only be your DPS potential while continuously using your abilities for the given time.
You can get a friend to goad you or a bard to sing. Or both.

But don't simulate running out of tp in a given fight.
That would be like dps pretending to dodge or do mechanics during their dummy parses.
They're meant to simulate maximum potential in ideal circumstances. No artificial handicaps.

[Freyyy]

You also have to take into account the fact that the WAR gives himself his own slashing debuff when parsing alone on a dummy, it's a big advantage compared to the other tanks. In real fights, DRK and PLD will most likely benefit from the slashing debuff too, thus if you want to have the same results on a dummy you need someone to apply the slashing debuff while you're parsing, then you'll see your real DPS and be able to compare it to WAR. When all 3 tanks can benefit from the slashing debuff, they are almost completely equal. I'm pretty sure that Faytte didn't parse with slashing debuff on DRK and PLD. It makes kind of a big difference.

[Zorthos]

You also have to take into account the fact that the WAR gives himself his own slashing debuff when parsing alone on a dummy, it's a big advantage compared to the other tanks.debuff on DRK and PLD. It makes kind of a big difference.

We have a ninja in our static my dps has gone up since she joined. Slashing debuff is amazing. As DRK I parse 600dps on ravana.

[SirTaint]

PLD can still parse close to WARs. The recorded differences are mostly a consequence of fight mechanics. Ravana Ex is fantastic for Warriors (who deal most of their damage through ability use and have high periods of burst) because of how Liberation works, while it's "bleh" for Paladins who simply can't pump out the same level of burst, dependent as they are on Sword Oath for a solid chunk of their damage.

PLDs run out of TP in 2:50 seconds. WARs don't run out of TP.

If the counter is some fights have a pause/stop to replenish TP, then WAR still has a huge advantage since 40-50% of their DPS comes during zerk, so any time zerk is down and the boss is untargetable they are actually adding to their advantage.

PLDs threat level in Sword oath is terrible compared to DRK/WAR in their respective stance. Again this means more Halone spam and less Royal, which kills their DPS in a real game situation. (Faytte was more elegant in pointing this out)

Throw the 3 min dummy parses out and you'll realize how bad of a place PLD is in right now with hate generation and DPS.