Naoki Yoshida recent interview

[StrejdaTom]

I hope Yoshi is wrong about MMORPGs being in decline in future. I don't really think I will ever be focused on other genre than MMOs and some social games never were my cup of tea.
Problem with MMOs is, that there are thousands of them but only about 5 of them are good. If developers made good MMOs built on player feedback, they wouldn't have to worry that their game would be a fail. FFXIV used a lot of feedback I believe and the game is going strong and well. They just need to react better to what their players really hate and suggest and I believe the game will be here for next 10 years.

They answered some of our suggestions really well with Heavensward but also made some dumb mistakes, lets hope they can fix it in future and do even better with 4.0.

EDIT: For example battlecraft and fieldcraft leves are kinda broken in HW, redscrips aren't really working that well too, there is too high ilvl progression and gear gets thrown away in 1 week etc..

[Fendred]

I hope Yoshi is wrong about MMORPGs being in decline in future. I don't really think I will ever be focused on other genre than MMOs and some social games never were my cup of tea.
Problem with MMOs is, that there are thousands of them but only about 5 of them are good. If developers made good MMOs built on player feedback, they wouldn't have to worry that their game would be a fail. FFXIV used a lot of feedback I believe and the game is going strong and well. They just need to react better to what their players really hate and suggest and I believe the game will be here for next 10 years.

They answered some of our suggestions really well with Heavensward but also made some dumb mistakes, lets hope they can fix it in future and do even better with 4.0.

EDIT: For example battlecraft and fieldcraft leves are kinda broken in HW, redscrips aren't really working that well too, there is too high ilvl progression and gear gets thrown away in 1 week etc..

They are in decline due to clueless developers like Yoshida. They've been harping the death of MMORPGs long before Yoshida ever showed up and they aren't dead. The current reality is that we have hundreds of thousands of players wanting some game they can enjoy but are forced to play WoW-MMO after WoW-MMO. These devs have been killing the market for years. Yoshida is working for a company that only knows how to make single player games or games with optional multiplayer. I mean, he was surprised that hunts, something implemented due to player request, "even worked." He doesn't have a clue how to make a long lasting MMORPG.

[Risvertasashi]

They are in decline due to clueless developers like Yoshida.

You mean the guy that managed to turn around a failed game into the most successful one in recent (post-wow) history, in a genre that has been declining as a whole?

We've been getting some alternatives (and some have been around for a long time and updated to current technology constantly, like EVE online). Wildstar and ArcheAge, for example. Now you can try to point the finger at various flaws but the fact is, if there's a solid foundation and people want to play, games can do well despite them.

But all of these are destined to remain niche.

I do hope someone reinvents the genre someday but, well, castle in the sky.

[Fendred]

... by copy catting the general structure of a game long since in decline and slapping a few things from GW2 on as an afterthought. Yes, he is skilled as a game developer, and he saved the company by creating a game that managed to sell over 4 million copies. There is a big difference between the genre being stagnant and being in decline. Wild Star's structure is WoW with action combat, although the housing is uniquely its own. ArcheAge is something I have no experience with and will not comment on. The forces at play in the MMORPG market obscure whether it is truly a niche genre because it has been overrun with copy cats created by devs who haven't done their sociology homework.

Compare the life of older MMORPGs to these new age ones. The developers for those games, especially Ultima Online, claim to have delved into sociology to learn more about human interaction before building their games. Considering the features implemented in today's MMORPGs are far less social than those of earlier ones, I sincerely doubt the devs for all those WoW clones really did any homework.

[Airget]

They are in decline due to clueless developers like Yoshida. They've been harping the death of MMORPGs long before Yoshida ever showed up and they aren't dead. The current reality is that we have hundreds of thousands of players wanting some game they can enjoy but are forced to play WoW-MMO after WoW-MMO. These devs have been killing the market for years. Yoshida is working for a company that only knows how to make single player games or games with optional multiplayer. I mean, he was surprised that hunts, something implemented due to player request, "even worked." He doesn't have a clue how to make a long lasting MMORPG.

Thing is if you are going to call someone clueless for reviving a failure from the fires then go ahead and make your own MMO and realize how hard it is to pull in people with "hardcore" mechanics that force you to spend an excessive amount of time to just keep up with those around them.

[Risvertasashi]

Thing is if you are going to call someone clueless for reviving a failure from the fires then go ahead and make your own MMO and realize how hard it is to pull in people with "hardcore" mechanics that force you to spend an excessive amount of time to just keep up with those around them.

Wildstar is an excellent case study here. Both in terms of accessing endgame (time sink) and scaling rewards based on performance of the group. Among other things.

spoiler: It ain't pretty.

[Delily]

They are in decline due to clueless developers like Yoshida. They've been harping the death of MMORPGs long before Yoshida ever showed up and they aren't dead. The current reality is that we have hundreds of thousands of players wanting some game they can enjoy but are forced to play WoW-MMO after WoW-MMO. These devs have been killing the market for years. Yoshida is working for a company that only knows how to make single player games or games with optional multiplayer. I mean, he was surprised that hunts, something implemented due to player request, "even worked." He doesn't have a clue how to make a long lasting MMORPG.

So, calling Yoshida clueless is like saying a Iggy Azala can't sing. People are watching her videos on YouTube, and not yours. Similarly, people are playing Yoshida's game, and not yours. You may disagree with this design decisions, but in the end, he has a successful product on his hand. Where's your MMORPG?

Claiming Square only knows how to make single player games with optional offline comments ignores the fact that FFXI has been running for a decade now; in fact, it was released 2 years before WoW. A little known fact is that have a second MMORPG, Dragon Quest, that was released in 2012. Again, where's your MMORPG?

Third, claiming the player base wants something other than WoW is not accurate. I can think of 2 games that are distinct from WoW that have not done well, those being Wildstar and the Secret World. I'll also throw in Warhammer Online, where Mythic basically said "we're the alternative to WoW" and the game flopped. The 2 most successful post WoW MMOS are LoTRO and FFXIV, both of which have refined the WoW model. LoTRO is F2P, true, but it's still a success. Even more, you yourself have a level 60 monk, clearly you dislike FFXIV.

You're entitled to your opinions as everyone else, but claiming Yoshida and Square aren't qualified to speak on MMOs when they have a proven track record is ridiculous.

by copy catting the general structure of a game long since in decline and slapping a few things from GW2 on as an afterthought. Yes, he is skilled as a game developer, and he saved the company by creating a game that managed to sell over 4 million copies. There is a big difference between the genre being stagnant and being in decline. Wild Star's structure is WoW with action combat, although the housing is uniquely its own. ArcheAge is something I have no experience with and will not comment on. The forces at play in the MMORPG market obscure whether it is truly a niche genre because it has been overrun with copy cats created by devs who haven't done their sociology homework.

He took a model that has proven success, and added his own design decisions to it. He was not out to evolve the genre, he was out to save a failing product. You also left out the concept of a genre being mature.

Compare the life of older MMORPGs to these new age ones. The developers for those games, especially Ultima Online, claim to have delved into sociology to learn more about human interaction before building their games. Considering the features implemented in today's MMORPGs are far less social than those of earlier ones, I sincerely doubt the devs for all those WoW clones really did any homework.

The key word is they claim. Maybe Garriot did work with Bartle when making UO, but in the end, that was built in a different market space. Markets evolve over time.

[Risvertasashi]

-snip-

TSW is another excellent example. No classes, no levels, extremely customizable character progression, quests like no other MMO has...

I'm very glad TSW exists, it's truly different and really quite an experience to play. But... it's also been on life support pretty much since launch. Bugs that have been there since release. Content coming 2 years late and in many cases not coming at all...

It just doesn't have population, doesn't have budget, etc etc. I'd still like to see someone successfully reinvent the genre, but, yeah. Most people just don't find alternatives interesting and certainly aren't willing to pay for them.

Minor nitpick about EVE online: It's not really a space sim at all. Its physics model actually resembles that of submarines/being underwater. But mostly it doesn't actually simulate much at all.