This patch dropped the ball hard

[Rafaelhades]

The problem with more side content is that unless they keep upgrading it every patch, it doesn't work with the vertical progression system. No one does WP or AK unless it's in their roulette and no one bothers to go in to level capped dungeons other than roulette. Maybe adding tomes to them and uncapping tomes? Then it's still a grind. and changing up the way dungeons work requires a major overhaul. Can it be done? Sure but they would have to redo the roulette system.

Another issue to crop up with side events for tokens would be that players will just find the most efficient way to farm it, leading to repetitive token grinds for gear. Unless they gate individual job gear to different events, some events will be barren due to how less efficient they are, which leads to no queues and players being forced to the efficient one (ala WP spam over AK in 2.X).

[Zyrusticae]

We have evidence that the current system works: 4,000,000+ players.

Not really. That's just the number of people that have purchased a box copy and logged into the game (since trial accounts aren't included). It says absolutely nothing about their retention numbers.

I find it very telling that they've never once just straight-up told us 'we have X number of subscribers right now', or even given us another player concurrency number (which was something they did waaay back at launch when we broke 100k concurrent players). I suspect the reason they haven't told us is because they are not proud of those numbers and are having issues retaining subscribers over the long haul.

This isn't even going to be my first hiatus from the game. I did the same thing back during the launch of 2.0, and didn't come back until Syrcus Tower was released. When history repeats itself... Well, they would do well to learn from it, wouldn't they?

[Colt47]

Rafaelhades that is exactly what I've been saying earlier in the thread about the way the rewards are being distributed. The majority of the newest currency are locked into either expert roulette, made up of two dungeons, and Alexander. Those two are the easiest sources of this editions myth tomes, and already people were burned out on expert roulette from farming law. Now we don't even have high level roulette to help break things up.

People should be getting small amounts of true end game gear currency from just about everything they do. That way there is enough variety to keep people playing, maybe even earn some while leveling other jobs.

[Kaedan]

People should be getting small amounts of true end game gear currency from just about everything they do. That way there is enough variety to keep people playing, maybe even earn some while leveling other jobs.

We do. We get Eso from every roulette except MSQ. And besides, to cap out Eso you only have to run 1 expert roulette a day for 6 days. That's a total playtime of 3 hours.

This isn't even going to be my first hiatus from the game. I did the same thing back during the launch of 2.0, and didn't come back until Syrcus Tower was released. When history repeats itself... Well, they would do well to learn from it, wouldn't they?

Learn from what? You certainly have a high opinion of yourself if you think they care (or should care) about you taking a break.

News Flash: You are not representative of all players. Your opinion is not the majority opinion or what everyone else thinks and feels.

[Rafaelhades]

Rafaelhades that is exactly what I've been saying earlier in the thread about the way the rewards are being distributed. The majority of the newest currency are locked into either expert roulette, made up of two dungeons, and Alexander. Those two are the easiest sources of this editions myth tomes, and already people were burned out on expert roulette from farming law. Now we don't even have high level roulette to help break things up.

People should be getting small amounts of true end game gear currency from just about everything they do. That way there is enough variety to keep people playing, maybe even earn some while leveling other jobs.

But we already do. I've capped Esoterics on Wednesday doing anything but roulette and dungeon spam. Got Alex gear for the week through PF runs and DF, did Ravana EX with static for weapons and tokens and did 0 dungeons for my mains. Geared both BRD and MCH and used roulettes to level WAR to 56. There is enough variety in the current content to not burn out grinding tomes from Neverreap/Fractal, unless you absolutely need to cap on Tuesday.

Granted, I spammed Alex 20 times due to 4 run pts and Ravana because he's sgot a stranglehold on my bow but better and faster than Neverreap ad nauseum.

[BreathlessTao]

If you want something changed, you have to give evidence that it would be an improvement and that the majority would like it.

Uh...huh....right. Yeah, in theory. In theory that's how it is and that's how it works. In practice however... in short: don't tell me all those failures would have happened if that was the way it works. All the new - whatever type of content in any game, or any sequel of any game, or even movies or whatever - that so many things in history failed because the market research teams did all their work and did it 100% perfectly and reliably. Proof only goes so far, and especially when it's not proof but only a projection of expectations for the future, it has as much chance to fail as to do succeed. Many of the biggest successes are actually born from taking the biggest risks; sure you can go on walking the same old path every day, but eventually it will get old and obsolete and you'll meet less and less people on that road as time goes by. And when you realise you should've found another path because yours is all abandoned, it's already too late.

As a business, their goal is to please the largest number of people they can, which often means upsetting the minority.

Again, in theory. I've lost count of how many times I felt that SE is aiming to please, say, hardcore raiders/crafters/gatherers, and not giving one chocobo tailfeather about the rest of us. Don't tell me those groups are not absolute minorities; don't tell me I must be alone having felt like that - posts across numerous threads over the months have proven that I'm not. Even if the people posting on here are only a small fraction of the actual playerbase. So yeah, once again, theoretically that's how it works. But practice is different and in practice that "rule" has to be overlooked and overwritten far too often, because the several minorities will end up making up quite a nice chunk of the whole, while the "majority" is just "doing ok anyway".

We do. We get Eso from every roulette except MSQ.

We get Esoterics from Expert (35), Leveling (5, and it's completely stupid, being forced to choose between leveling and Esoterics), Trials (10), and Frontline (20, but good luck with that, at least on some worlds the queues are pretty much infinite because nobody's doing PvP).
No Esoterics from High - again, stupid, because those are literally not good for anything else than tomes (and zodiac drops maybe but then you don't do that via roulette), I really don't understand why the lv50 "hard" ones and their equivalents were not upgraded to give at least some spare change exp at least from the bosses; no Esoterics from MSQ - I'd say it's also stupid, because 120 Poetics will not ever encourage anyone at 60 to go and help out with CM/Praetorium; no Esoterics from Guildhest Roulette either - that's maybe the only one that actually makes sense (though maybe this one could drop some Poetics or maybe Law when done with a lv60, else there's no motivation to help out here either).

But we already do. I've capped Esoterics on Wednesday doing anything but roulette and dungeon spam. Got Alex gear for the week through PF runs and DF, did Ravana EX with static for weapons and tokens and did 0 dungeons for my mains. Geared both BRD and MCH and used roulettes to level WAR to 56. There is enough variety in the current content to not burn out grinding tomes from Neverreap/Fractal, unless you absolutely need to cap on Tuesday.

Granted, I spammed Alex 20 times due to 4 run pts and Ravana because he's sgot a stranglehold on my bow but better and faster than Neverreap ad nauseum.

Good for you! Like, honestly, I do mean that. /cheer
But let's look at the other side. I've leveled my BLM from 58+ to 60. I did Experts, and at least once went through all the other roulettes as well (except for Frontline because that's impossible). I did hunts, I did a few FATEs. I farmed Alexander for drops, got it from 3 and 4, still missing from 1 and 2. Did GC Provisioning like twice with both MNR and BTN. So I don't think I can be blamed with doing content in a way that'd get me to burn out. I can't farm Ravana because I still couldn't even find a group that could've managed to kill Bismarck. That's where I am right now, and I still "only" have 390 Esoterics. And yes I know it's basically one roulette to cap now, just countering all that. It's Saturday (for me here) and I'm still not capped - pretty sure about as many people are in my shoes as in yours.

[Rafaelhades]

That just proves that doing any content will put you well on your way to capping Esoterics without spamming 60 dungeons. It`s Saturday and you`re 390/450 while doing other things not related to grinding the same 2 dungeons over and over. Unless you really need to cap right away, you can progress at a steady clip and have the option to bulk farm if life requires you to not log on. My little foray into story time was just meant to show that I never felt obligated to hop into a dungeon just for tomes.

As an aside, 5 Esoterics for levelling roulette is not worth it in my mind. The exp boost on a lower level job is a better use for that. Expert roulette every day + Alexander NM for your weekly should be all you need.

[Jetstream_Fox]

Though I've spent more then a week away from the game since the patch, I still feel very strongly that the game needs a overhaul on it's current gear acquisition model and we're overall, being corralled into a constant, unchanging method. While some of you are ok with constantly following the same method, I still believe that if the game featured more ways to obtaining gear, it would be a more fruitful experience. I think the game could utilize the treasure hunting aspect to include gear, redevelop the crafting and allow it to be on par with tome gear or maybe include a randomly generated dungeon that could drop gear and include pieces from tomes. However I feel treasure hunting and the random dungeon gear drop would have to be low, but not make it low enough to disregard them as a viable options for players to explore.

[Yukiko]

Why are we always talking from the view of a player who cleared the storyline?
If you have to catch up there is not much where you can gain those stones, you first have to reach endgame BEFORE you can start farming them...
For someone who is not so far storywise it is hell of a burden to rush things just to start grinding afterwards!

The Lockout in roulette is just because programming sucks! The system does not allow to choose from the cleared dungeons, its static programming and only allows the set dungeons, so if you dont have the set dungeons and the system is choosing a dungeon you did not clear it will most likely crash...

[Ayanno]

Sorry, burden of proof. If you want something changed, you have to give evidence that it would be an improvement and that the majority would like it. The shifting of the burden of proof just because you can't isn't an argument. Plus, they have a market research team for a reason. That's their entire job is to research reactions from the demographic.

We have evidence that the current system works: 4,000,000+ players. You may not be personally pleased by aspects, but you can't please everyone. As a business, their goal is to please the largest number of people they can, which often means upsetting the minority.

The forums are never, never, ever a valid or reliable source for anything. For one, it's only an extremely small number of the total population that post here. For two, people come to forums to complain, not to praise. The people happy with the game are playing it and if they have nothing to complain about, are far, far less likely to come to the forums. This is why the forums for every game are filled with negativity and trolls. Because people are loudest when they are upset and want to complain.

So yeah, the fact you see complaints on the forums is no surprise at all, and no indication that anything needs to be changed.

Give evidence that it will be an improvement? Really now? There is no chance of something being a failure or success if you never try SE knew, absolutely knew that 1.0 would be a success. There was no doubt in their minds that it would succeed. It failed, horribly. SE didn't know, at all, if ARR was going to succeed, not with the history of the game being so.......rocky, shall we say. They hoped, oh, they hoped, but they didn't know until after the game's launch.

Market research team? This same team that told them 1.0 was going to succeed? This same team that told them Spirits Within would be a box office smash, so pour all that money into it? Really? That market research team? Ok then. You brought that winner of a point up. Nice work.

We have evidence that 4 Million+ players have purchased the game since ARR's launch. We have ZERO evidence of the number of active subscribers at any time Before the expansion, after, during whatever. SE has not yet(WHY!?) gone public with how many subscribers are active, just how many copies of the game they have sold. Again, YOU brought this winner of a point up.

Tis true that discussion forums can be......wanting.....in getting solid feedback on any topic. However, changes in the game, for the better, I might add, would not have occurred if the people here didn't voice their concerns, and give informed, proper, TRUE feedback. There are complainers, sensationalists, trolls etc etc every where, yes indeed. If you sift through the forums, and in truth, ANY source of public feedback, you will find customers who have good ideas, who have thought of something the devs missed(they are human, after all) and the devs see it. They go ya know, that's pretty good! Let's do it. Fantasia's off the top of my head comes to mind. There are many, many more.

Was there anything else, cupcake?