Dragoon Punished at lvl 58 - What needs to be done with Wheeling Thrust

[SpiritMuse]

I think at this point I'm just gonna macro them into the same button since they're exactly the same skill anyway and then put Geirskogul in the spot that's freed up. :/

[Jonnycbad]

That will hurt your dps in the long run, especially if you're riding botd timer down to 1~2 seconds. Might lose the effect before you get the 4th off due to macro delay.

[Teiren]

It seems that LIVE Letter question was not simplified at all. Here's all that happens in 3.05:

-Fang and Claw: ・Potency has been increased from 100 to 200. * Potency when attacking from the flank has not been adjusted.
-Wheeling Thrust: ・Potency has been increased from 100 to 200. * Potency when attacking from the rear has not been adjusted.

It should have been 230, not 200, but it's okay because at least at 200 it's just about DPS-neutral to use them at level 56-59 compared to not using them as long as you don't "miss" all of them, and it's a tiny increase even when you miss most of them. At level 60, this change makes it indisputably a DPS increase to always use them, whereas before I found them questionable because of the difficulty of using Geirskogul as often as possible.

This patch doesn't address the incredibly bad design of the two weaponskills or how bad of a resource BotD is for Geirskogul and otherwise. Still, I'll wait until 3.1 before giving up hope. 3.05 is just a minor patch, so I didn't expect everything anyway. And besides, in ARR they didn't fix how shitty Impulse Drive combos & Heavy Thrust buff were until very, very late (2.45), so anything could happen. It'd be pretty sad to have to wait that long again to get this fixed, but oh well. So be it.

Edit: Btw, I'm gonna take a cheap shot here: The * note for Fang and Claw actually says "from the rear" in the patch notes, which is a typo of course. It can't really be more obvious how stupid of a design this is.

[TWOxACROSS]

While I agree with the sentiment that the entire set up is quite silly, I think the OP's idea of giving both skills at Lv56 isn't quite the solution. Would it alleviate a player getting comfortable with a 100% proc rate on Fang and Claw? Yes, but I find that to be the entire problem - the proc of either Fang and Claw or Wheeling Thrust.

During E3, both skills could only be proc'd by their respective skillchains, eg you could only proc Wheeling Thrust (back attack finisher) from Chaos Thrust (back attack combo), and similarly with the other skillchain. This 3.05 buff to damage isn't exactly the right step, it certainly prevents such a huge loss in DPS by not being able to get into a specific position, but that's not the point, because positional problems are two-fold...

Firstly, the entire point of positional attacks in the game is for increasing intended damage, and it was bad enough when bosses couldn't be hit from a specific position (due to their erratic movements or simply design, like Demon Wall) for DRG to use the tools they were supposed to be so reliant upon making the Heavy Thrust buff or Chaos Thrust DoT some ephemeral dream until late in updates when they removed a lot of the positional requirements.

Secondly, Dragoons are not Monks, please don't homogenize them. I can understand giving rangers a turret stance, but forcing a dragoon to move like a monk when dragoons were made as burst DPS with as little movement as possible defeats the purpose of making them different. Dragoons were supposed to find a position next to an enemy, and then stay there while dishing out the big numbers. If I'm hitting a boss in the flank, why the heck do I suddenly want to have to move around to hit them with Wheeling Thrust? RNG is bad enough in this game (RNGesus is why my MCH is an atheist), so why add it needlessly into a job's rotation where it doesn't belong, on a job that has the primary playstyle of bearing down in one spot for skillchains and other attacks?

What it mostly comes down to is logic, especially since it was perfect back in the E3 demos. Where is the logic in forcing something like this on dragoons? It's certainly not balance, because it just takes the extra effort to do some of the same DPS (if it's possible to get the positional bonus). It's not that I want dragoon to be "easy" or anything (although we had it rough for a long time), but this needlessly complicates the rotation that is already made more complex by Blood of the Dragon.

Tl;dr - remove the random proc mechanic of "either or" and just make the finishers combo off of their respective positional combos. The 3.05 buff is nice, but it wasn't really the problem.

[Hyrist]

You can edit your posts to bypass the character limit.

[TWOxACROSS]

You can edit your posts to bypass the character limit.

Ah, thankees.

[Jonnycbad]

This is a pretty huge deal. This isn't a buff this is just a removal of a nerf. For those that don't play DRG, originally our WT/F&C combo finisher does 100 potency unless we hit a positional, then it does 290. Some fights make it hard to hit positional like Ravana's Seeing Right/Left/Wings stance. Almost every other positional in the game is a slight damage boost, but for DRG's WT and F&C, it was a HUGE damage boost. By comparison, Chaos Thrust is 200 for any direction, but 250 for rear hit--only a 50 potency difference. F&C and WT were 190 potency differences (290 for rear/flank and 100 for other positions). This just makes it a lot less of a DPS loss for missing our position.

Additionally, this helps DRGs solo a bit better, since when we would solo, we would be forced to use WT and F&C to keep up BoTD. However, in doing so these would be forced to 100 potency attacks since it's exceedingly difficult to hit rear/flank when solo without stuns and some mobs are immune.

[Jonnycbad]

I assume the big changes will be in 3.1

3.05 was changes to the most glaring issues, and only for a few jobs.

[Syrus_Draco]

The crying babby DRGs got what they wanted in this patch. Pretty pathetic to see this change come in since it is not difficult at all to position yourself for procs, and EVEN in fights like Ravana that force you into unwanted positions, the one time potency down isn't a game breaking thing to deal with.

Monks have been dealing with positionals for --every attack-- since the start of 2.0 and they have consistently yielded competitive top dps

Oh well this doesn't change my rotation or play at all, just allows bad dragoons who can't handle positionals to be slightly less bad in numbers.

[TWOxACROSS]

The crying babby DRGs got what they wanted in this patch. Pretty pathetic to see this change come in since it is not difficult at all to position yourself for procs, and EVEN in fights like Ravana that force you into unwanted positions, the one time potency down isn't a game breaking thing to deal with.

Yeah, it's not difficult, but it's entirely complicated for absolutely no reason, and doesn't fit the job.

Monks have been dealing with positionals for --every attack-- since the start of 2.0 and they have consistently yielded competitive top dps

And here's the point - that's what monks are s'posed to do, that's their playstyle: they weave back and forth for greater damage. Dragoons don't do that, they pick a position, bear down, and unload a skillchain on that position, moving linearly with jumps, grounded by landing positions.

It just doesn't fit their playstyle to be forced to move like a monk. Just because one class does it, doesn't mean another should; people play different classes for a multitude of reasons, chief among them being their playstyle.