Astrologian buffs confirmed

[RichardButte]

IMO, Astro doesn't need more healing potency.

I agree with everything else you said, and I WISH I could agree with this, but the ugly truth is that ASTs are going to get placed in parties with generally crap players, the same as any other healer will.

When that happens, the cards aren't going to do a thing to save them in situations when serious emergency healing is needed and the AST just won't have the tools to do that.

Again, if the party is competent, ASTs can heal anything pre-savage without issue, but so can any of the healers and I've been able to do some pretty beefy DPS as a SCH in Alex, thanks to SCH's amazing mana regen and the fact that you can spec to have six friggin' dots (both miasmas, both bios, Aero and Shadowflare). There's no way I could pump out damage like that as an AST, and especially not without going OOM like crazy...

[SynGrell]

I already made this post on Reddit, but I figured I would make it here too:

The really annoying thing is that we supposedly have less healing as a trade-off for having more support/utility, yet we are inferior in that regard as well. Scholars can provide more dps for the group by pressing one button on cooldown than we can even when we get perfectly lucky with RNG. Then they also have Sacred Soil which is absolutely superior to Nocturnal CU. White Mages get Asylum, which is better than Diurnal CU if only because of the fact they can place it and not have to channel it. They also have Assize which is great MP gain plus high damage or healing for free.

When you really compare it, the other healers have more, and better, tools for healing as well as utility. More so in a particular category for each; White Mage and Scholar respectively.

If I am supposed to have reduced healing because of support, but my support is still inferior, then where the fuck is my better healing/support ability?

There are some major changes that need to be made, the ones that stand out the most to me are:

Lightspeed: remove the potency penalty altogether and make the buff affect both cast and recast time.

Collective Unconscious: Make it work like both Asylum and Assize; keep mechanics consistent, especially on abilities that are obviously mimics of an existing ability. In either stance, we should be able to drop it like SS or Asylum and keep doing our job while it is up.

Stances: I personally think we should be able to switch stances in combat, even if with a minor cooldown. You don't design a hybrid of A and B within the same role, make it weaker at both A and B, but then force it only be one or the other a time. You might as well just take the original A or B then, instead of the weaker imitation. Something like a 10-15 second cooldown could be appropriate.

Cards: First, the cards just need a flat increase to effectiveness; even at their best, the gain is minor for the party. To that end, all cards should have a base 30 second duration. Also, all cards should be AoE baseline, without the loss in potency. Change Royal Road to simply draw an additional card that you can apply and have the cooldown start on skill use rather than card use. Then reduce the cooldown of Shuffle to 60 seconds; make spread usable outside of combat.

The changes to the cards would make them far more consistent and worthwhile, but would keep the skill element. Every "round" of draw, you can get an additional card with RR, do you shuffle that and maybe get a different buff that you use to overwrite the draw card because it is better? If it is the same, you can wait and then use it to "extend" the buff; Spread it and keep that for later? Or do you spread the Royal Road? Maybe you spread the draw card to see what you get from Royal Road first? This keeps an element of decision making that will separate good Astrologians from bad ones while making sure that the buffs are actually worth the reduced healing effectiveness.

[Rahaya]

...Except when they have to decide whether or not to spam AoE abilities which they risk burning their TP out otherwise.

This makes no sense. Spire has an icon. You do not need to be on party chat for Spire/Ewer. I have no idea why you insist you do. You do not. It is no different than the DRG noticing the MCH TP icon and can now spam. He has Spire instead.

Your points are presented in a very one-sided manner. You have not pointed out how a TP refresh avoids the same downsides of 'if they don't need TP.' RNG still exists. Spire might not help when hitting bottom, but when does that ever realistically happen in content? Especially when 'getting low' in the first place was something that apparently doesn't happen and that's why Spire is totally bad. You are exchanging different pros for other cons. That is not 'more versatile,' that is exchanging pros for other cons.

[RichardButte]

This makes no sense. Spire has an icon. You do not need to be on party chat for Spire/Ewer. I have no idea why you insist you do. You do not. It is no different than the DRG noticing the MCH TP icon and can now spam. He has Spire instead.

So you've NEVER been in a tense enough fight where you're dodging tons of AoE or been spamming heals like mad to the point where you may have not noticed a buff being thrown on you, ever? Seriously?

Your points are presented in a very one-sided manner. You have not pointed out how a TP refresh avoids the same downsides of 'if they don't need TP.'

I actually specifically stated earlier that it doesn't, but that this and the person dying a moment after the buff is cast are the only two remaining situations where the buff won't be useful, and it's equally useless to the current cost reduction buff because a player standing there doing nothing with full TP isn't going to benefit from either one, no.

Spire might not help when hitting bottom, but when does that ever realistically happen in content?

Yes, RNG still exists, and this happened to my tank last night in Alex and she was begging for TP.

If you draw a spire before they go out of TP, great! If you only draw it after they go out of TP, well shit...

Again, it's all about making the buffs useful in the maximum number of situations.

Especially when 'getting low' in the first place was something that apparently doesn't happen and that's why Spire is totally bad. You are exchanging different pros for other cons. That is not 'more versatile,' that is exchanging pros for other cons.

Not sure what you mean, here...

If the card restores a percentage of a player's TP over 20 seconds, it'll be useful in every single circumstance that the cost reduction is useful, plus THESE (where reduction would be worthless):

-The player is missing TP but stunned or otherwise unable to use their abilities (like no target to hit at that moment), but they will still benefit from the restored TP after the buff runs out
-The player has run out of TP and will benefit from having their TP restored since they have none to spend
-The player doesn't notice that they have the buff on them for whatever reason but they will still benefit from the extra TP when they next look at their bar and see they have more leeway

Can you name an example where the reduction is superior to the restoration?

[Muahbec]

People must stop these
"cards are fine"
"AST healing potency is fine"
"AST is fine"
Its fine but its DEFINITELY NOT GOOD, do you see people calling WHM or SCH "fine healers"? They are GOOD healers, AST needs some adjustments or else it will be discarded in raids and future hard high level stuff.
As a AST player i can say, i would prefer a WHM+SCH in a raid over AST+Something
The heals are weak(I can't stand those 380,290 potencies, why not 400,300 like cure/physick and medica? WHY?), we don't have any healing buff such as Divine seal or Fey illumination, the cards are not THAT reliable, MP runs out like water in the desert and we don't have that much MP recovery.
I'm saying this because i LOVE the job, but it needs some more work and not just me but a LOT of players want it to be better.

[Cynfael]

Putting aside for a moment the ongoing debate about Spire and how to make it more useful more of the time, the biggest miscommunication I perceive around here is that everyone can mean something slightly different when they evaluate AST.

- We have players who don't understand why there is so much bitching when they are clearly able to complete all content on any healer class, including AST. Some of these players discount valid criticisms of the Job because they don't fully account for their own high skill level helping to compensate for shortcomings in the design.

- Then we also have players who may be newer to healing in FFXIV and find AST unusually challenging for little reward because they are still shaky on the fundamentals, themselves. It's easy to discount their opinions because they come partly from a general lack of experience and skill.

- On top of that, consider players who may actually be rather skilled, but who for whatever reason often find themselves playing with unskilled company. Constantly attempting to save other players from a string of their own dumb mistakes is trying for any healer, but especially for the AST, who lacks the selection of powerful healing CDs and instantaneous burst AoE healing afforded both WHM and SCH. Naturally they are going to vent that AST is lacking since they can handle a similar level of idiocy on their WHM and/or SCH with a lot less stress.

In short, it's important to consider that everyone is coming from a slightly different place when they offer criticism, suggestions, or even assertions that AST is fine.

[Rahaya]

So you've NEVER been in a tense enough fight where you're dodging tons of AoE or been spamming heals like mad to the point where you may have not noticed a buff being thrown on you, ever? Seriously?

I am not saying the buff can't be missed. I'm saying that does not matter. They do not need to do anything special, at all with the card on them as is. I've been on the receiving end as a NIN. I notice when I don't have to Invigorate when I would have otherwise, and when I was low and was able to stretch it out keeping up my normal rotation rather than cutting back on the Mutilate.

I actually specifically stated earlier that it doesn't, but that this and the person dying a moment after the buff is cast are the only two remaining situations where the buff won't be useful, and it's equally useless to the current cost reduction buff because a player standing there doing nothing with full TP isn't going to benefit from either one, no.

Ah, you had put it in the bullet point list for why Spire as a reduction was bad, and then went on to say 'Making the card a refresh fixes all these issues.' That implies the very opposite.

Yes, RNG still exists, and this happened to my tank last night in Alex and she was begging for TP.

If you draw a spire before they go out of TP, great! If you only draw it after they go out of TP, well shit...

Again, it's all about making the buffs useful in the maximum number of situations.

And if you draw the refresh mid fight, great! If you draw it on pull, it's just as useless as an immediate Goad is. The reduction applies to every move used after, while the refresh is in danger of wasting ticks on overgiving. Again, exchanging one pro for another.

Not sure what you mean, here...

If the card restores a percentage of a player's TP over 20 seconds, it'll be useful in every single circumstance that the cost reduction is useful, plus THESE (where reduction would be worthless):

-The player is missing TP but stunned or otherwise unable to use their abilities (like no target to hit at that moment), but they will still benefit from the restored TP after the buff runs out
-The player has run out of TP and will benefit from having their TP restored since they have none to spend
-The player doesn't notice that they have the buff on them for whatever reason but they will still benefit from the extra TP when they next look at their bar and see they have more leeway

Can you name an example where the reduction is superior to the restoration?

Skillspeed. A refresh by its very nature is a finite amount of TP given and at a flat rate unaffected by skillspeed. The reduction, on the other hand, applies to every action instead making it impossible to 'run ahead' of the benefit. That is a concern as we start gearing up, especially the skillspeed classes. Your last bullet point is also superfluous. Spire reduction grants more leeway regardless of if they notice the buff or not, the sole restriction is that they are using TP. We have 15 seconds to apply the card, which means we can choose when to use it after it is drawn for maximum effect. It also gives more the greater total cost of the action. A flat 20TP per tick on the refresh is outstripped by any action costing 120 TP and up making it more useful for AOE. I chose 20 because that is the equivalent of untraited Goad.

[RichardButte]

I am not saying the buff can't be missed. I'm saying that does not matter.

And I'm saying that you're mistaken.

Tanks will be more likely to burn extra TP to ensure they have aggro if they know they have a 20% reduction, DPS will be more likely to AoE recklessly and even on AST, I'm KNOW I'm more likely to fire off spells at the risk of overhealing if I know I'm saving 20% per cast.

You've honestly never Ewered yourself and then proceeded to refresh your AoE HoT specifically because you knew you were saving MP at the time? (Do you actually play AST? I only see 60 arcanist and no AST in your profile...)

Just HAVING the extra T/MP is worlds better than having a 20 second window in which you save T/MP.

And if you draw the refresh mid fight, great! If you draw it on pull, it's just as useless as an immediate Goad is. The reduction applies to every move used after, while the refresh is in danger of wasting ticks on overgiving. Again, exchanging one pro for another.

Um, no, the refresh will still be ticking as they're USING T/MP. Again, refresh is superior because it fills missing resources regardless of whether or not you're using them at the time.

Skillspeed. A refresh by its very nature is a finite amount of TP given and at a flat rate unaffected by skillspeed.

I'll give you that one, but that's one.

Your last bullet point is also superfluous. Spire reduction grants more leeway regardless of if they notice the buff or not

Refer to the first point of this post.

T/MP restored to your resource pool over 20 seconds >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 20 seconds in which you spend less T/MP.

After the buff expires, you no longer receive any benefit for it in its current incarnation. If it refreshed instead, you would continue to benefit from it until you had spent the extra T/MP it had given you, effectively giving you a larger window in which to benefit from the buff.

[Rahaya]

And I'm saying that you're mistaken.

Tanks will be more likely to burn extra TP to ensure they have aggro if they know they have a 20% reduction, DPS will be more likely to AoE recklessly and even on AST, I'm KNOW I'm more likely to fire off spells at the risk of overhealing if I know I'm saving 20% per cast.

You've honestly never Ewered yourself and then proceeded to refresh your AoE HoT specifically because you knew you were saving MP at the time? (Do you actually play AST? I only see 60 arcanist and no AST in your profile...)

We are coming at this from two different angles. You are talking about achieving maximum effect from the card here. I am talking about what is required to see appreciable benefit from the card. The TP refresh is under the exact same onus you are talking about.If I Goad the WAR, and he doesn't use that opportunity to Overpower more, he is missing out on the maximum gain, but gets TP back regardless. Spire works the same. If I give him a Spire, and he doesn't Overpower, he is still getting 20% off his Maim combo regardless.

Ironically, Overpower would see greater return assuming 20TP a tick from the refresh. And yes, I do play AST. Feel free to look Y'chala Tamh up on Lodestone. Nothing to hide here.

Just HAVING the extra T/MP is worlds better than having a 20 second window in which you save T/MP.

Getting a 20% discount on a $100 dollar item has the same end result as buying it full price and getting a buck twenty afterwards. You feel it is 'worlds better' because you place more value on that particular niche where refresh works better. Both have pros and cons.

Um, no, the refresh will still be ticking as they're USING T/MP. Again, refresh is superior because it fills missing resources regardless of whether or not you're using them at the time.

Yes, it would. There is a reason I said 'overgiving' though. Either from an early draw in the fight or just after Invigorate is a situation where the target would receive less from refresh than a reduction on ability cost due to overflow.

I'll give you that one, but that's one.

Reduction is also front loaded. If I am low on TP, I can use that skill now because the 20% lowered the 'bar' for using it. Otherwise, I would be waiting on that refresh tick at the whims of server time (and will likely have altered my rotation lowering DPS already). Receiving a greater return on AoE than a flat refresh tick is three as you haven't rebutted that.

After the buff expires, you no longer receive any benefit for it in its current incarnation. If it refreshed instead, you would continue to benefit from it until you had spent the extra T/MP it had given you, effectively giving you a larger window in which to benefit from the buff.

Wrong. After the buff expires you would still have the 20% extra TP you didn't use. It is the exact same in that regard. I am not saying refresh is worse. I am saying that it is a side grade.

[RichardButte]

We are coming at this from two different angles. You are talking about achieving maximum effect from the card here. I am talking about what is required to see appreciable benefit from the card. The TP refresh is under the exact same onus you are talking about.If I Goad the WAR, and he doesn't use that opportunity to Overpower more, he is missing out on the maximum gain, but gets TP back regardless. Spire works the same. If I give him a Spire, and he doesn't Overpower, he is still getting 20% off his Maim combo regardless.

No, I'm talking about making the cards more useful in the maximum number of situations because much of the AST's toolkit is the raw definition of "non-versatile".

Yes, he's still getting 20% off of his main combo. Is he doing all the AoEing he would be doing if he saw that he had the buff? Probably not because he doesn't want to run out of TP, and who can blame him?

And like I said, BEING an AST means you'll have plenty of chances to toss Ewer onto yourself, and if you don't take that chance to do things like refresh your aspected helios/benefic NOW instead of when it's going to cost more MP, you're literally doing it wrong.

Getting a 20% discount on a $100 dollar item has the same end result as buying it full price and getting a buck twenty afterwards. You feel it is 'worlds better' because you place more value on that particular niche where refresh works better. Both have pros and cons.

In this case, we're talking about a 20% off coupon expiring before you knew you had it.

Yes, it would. There is a reason I said 'overgiving' though. Either from an early draw in the fight or just after Invigorate is a situation where the target would receive less from refresh than a reduction on ability cost due to overflow.

Did you invent the notion in your head that the refresh amount would be less than the 20% and then argue it?

Once again, if you are free to use abilities for the entire 20 seconds, you get 8 abilities at 2.5 sec recast.

Since you keep using overpower as an example, 8 uses of overpower at 130 TP each is 1040 TP used, meaning you save a whopping 208 TP if you use an ability every single moment that you can, starting when the AST casts Spire on you.

10 TP/tick for 20 seconds would be right about on par AND would be safe from all of the aforementioned situations where a reduction would be worthless or have it's effects reduced. That's 1% per tick for 20 seconds, which would be great for MP as well (realistically, it could be .5% per tick and still be fine).

Reduction is also front loaded. If I am low on TP, I can use that skill now because the 20% lowered the 'bar' for using it.

That's actually completely backwards: yes, you'll be able to activate skills with less TP, but you're going to be sitting there, waiting for TP to tick before being able to activate the skills, meaning you're going to get WAY less than your 8 abilities off.

With the regen, you're going to get every single point of TP that's coming to you, regardless of whether or not you're able to spend it right then and there.

Wrong. After the buff expires you would still have the 20% extra TP you didn't use. It is the exact same in that regard. I am not saying refresh is worse. I am saying that it is a side grade.

It's the same if and ONLY if the player was able to freecast for the entire 20 seconds, getting all 8 abilities off, which is highly unlikely.

Once again, restoring helps in many more situations because it's T/MP that the player can benefit from even after the buff has expired, regardless of the reason they didn't get to spend it during the buff.