Curious on opinion. Smn or Mch. Which would you pick?

[Aiselia]

For the question to make sense you need to understand the context

If you were as clever as you seem to think you are, you COULD have pointed out I did the same thing.

then why are they even bothering with whm/ast dps spells

So they don't have to kill things with their stick/globe when they're questing/soloing, of course.

My understanding, though admittedly I can't recall where I heard it, is that they have said that they do not take healer DPS into account when designing encounters. Healer DPS is a bonus, not a point of balance.

They can still crit even without litany

And with Litany, they have a higher chance.

What are you even talking about?

You said it won't happen.
I said we'll see.
What do you think I'm talking about?

I forgot that you are picking up statements then write random comments that lead to nowhere!!

You're the one that brought up giving a piercing buff to Bards. I didn't. At no point did I even suggest that Bards should be able to buff piercing damage. You made that up yourself.

Don't blame me if you can't recall what you said.

Are you talking about the 15% dps penalty when playing paeon or ballad? Because to you that seems like some "balanced" solution so let's cut it down to that.

I'm talking about how Bard weapons have an inherent 10% lower weapon damage on top of the 15% damage loss on Ballad/Paeon.

So I asked what balance would be lost if the 10% lower weapon damage was removed and the loss on Ballad/Paeon went up to 25%. It still results in the same DPS loss for playing the songs, and doesn't punish for having the songs but not playing them.

[Minorinz]

If you were as clever as you seem to think you are, you COULD have pointed out I did the same thing.
So they don't have to kill things with their stick/globe when they're questing/soloing, of course.
My understanding, though admittedly I can't recall where I heard it, is that they have said that they do not take healer DPS into account when designing encounters. Healer DPS is a bonus, not a point of balance. And with Litany, they have a higher chance. You said it won't happen. I said we'll see. What do you think I'm talking about? You're the one that brought up giving a piercing buff to Bards. I didn't. At no point did I even suggest that Bards should be able to buff piercing damage. You made that up yourself. Don't blame me if you can't recall what you said. I'm talking about how Bard weapons have an inherent 10% lower weapon damage on top of the 15% damage loss on Ballad/Paeon. So I asked what balance would be lost if the 10% lower weapon damage was removed and the loss on Ballad/Paeon went up to 25%. It still results in the same DPS loss for playing the songs, and doesn't punish for having the songs but not playing them.

You read what I wrote and chose to answer one question instead of all of them, then proceeded to say the rest of the questions are irrelevant when I clearly wrote a paragraph discussing why I was asking in the first place. Yes, I am apparently too smart to think it was obvious lmao

SE is impressed that healers are dealing higher numbers during raid content and they are aware that tanks do the same thing. this is a quote from the an interview with Yoshi:

This is also one of the reasons we decided to implement both a normal and savage version of Alexander. Once again, healer DPS was not included in the development team's calculation as it was for other jobs, so you should just think of healer DPS as a last way to get your overall party's DPS up to where it needs to be.

Healer's dps is very important during raid and is a nice bonus during other easy content. Things you already cleared, basically. Now, Just like how dps's utility is optional, healer's going cleric is optional as well for dungeons. Guess what though, it's balanced, because both litany and healer dpsing are optional. In other words, it simply depends on how good the player is.

I honestly don't think you know what you are talking. Some people on this thread already posted video proof of bard's/machinist's dps being high. You also seem to ignore this lovely post:

BRD is high-tier for the non-raid stuff, please enlighten me how having some of the highest burst and AoE, even with lower WD, is "punished."

10% extra damage with a bigger hit to songs, you would have to completely rebalance all DPS to do this. Every single one of them. Right now BRD does add more damage to a good group rather than being canned for ANY melee/caster, I've seen 1400 A1, I've seen higher than 1,000 for all of A1-4. I don't think you truly realize what's so strong about BRD ... it's how they translate into fights - not necessarily the movement aspect, but everything about them (minus WM's new semi-mobility loss) is strong in real fights.

- 12s Misery's End, no other class gets that. That by itself skews the dummy <-> real fight barrier.
- Ranged, on the very high end of multi-DoTing, which means they are add slayers and gain more from adds than most classes, and most encounters do have adds.
- Bursty. This is strong in its own right - you'll have encounters where there are constant phase shifts and breaks, like T9, where a truly skilled BRD will be nearly if not completely topping the parse because they're constantly gaining more strength from downtime than other classes.
- Still pretty dang mobile. More mobile than the majority of classes. The only forced movement/disconnect that truly hurts DPS now is having to move during an Iron Jaws recast, everything else is minor compared to a melee disconnecting or BLM moving.

BRD has every fight advantage. Because of these they do frighteningly close to melee in real fights as is, and then on top of these things you've got Foe's, TP, and MP regen. They're so strong and I don't think you even know it, and you want ... BRD/MCH to do the same damage as everyone else by default? Yeah because then they'll beat everyone by 10% in real fights, and you'll stack DRG BRD BRD BRD unless you put into place those silly class restriction ideas you have. So we're going to punish statics that already punish themselves by stacking classes? Or we just straight up increase BRD DPS so it can be less support, more DPS, because of some completely-unrelated-to-balance morals? I don't understand.

You seem to highlight statements and twist them the way you like and you cannot seem to give examples or proof of how lacking bard is.
Bad bards doing bad dps =\= the job needs to get buffed.


Where did you get this 10% lower weapon damage info from??? Do you know how weapon damage works to be asking for that 10%?

[Sen_Terrechant]

snip

Dont bother, these people wont listen to any amount of reason. They are pretty much 100% set on their opinion, as wrong as it may be, and they will not care what you say.

Just accept that this is the lower tier of player, who wont see much content, and because of that want the game to be balanced around their level- despite that having dire ramifications for the entire game balance.

[LambLich]

Where did you get this 10% lower weapon damage info from??? Do you know how weapon damage works to be asking for that 10%?

Its quite basic maths

Hive Kris WD:72 / Hive Musketoon WD:65 Difference = 7WD
7/72*100=9.72% difference

As to weather this should be increased and by how much who knows.

[Aiselia]

Healer's dps is very important during raid and is a nice bonus during other easy content.

Actually, if you read the quote you posted, healer DPS isn't taken into the calculations. Going from what was said in the quote, healers are, at best, a last resort if your DPS isn't high enough.

In other words, if healer DPS is very important, your DPS isn't doing good enough.

Some people on this thread already posted video proof of bard's/machinist's dps being high.

And I play a Bard and know how high it can be.

I didn't say it was super low. I said it shouldn't be balanced around a minority of the game.

Where did you get this 10% lower weapon damage info from???

From the game and elementary school math. Bard weapons have an inherent 10% less weapon damage, rounded (apparently 5- is down, 6+ is up).

Example: Ninja Zodiac weapon has 56 weapon damage. 10% of 56 is 5.6. Round that up to 6. Bard Zodiac has 50 weapon damage, 6 less than Ninja.

NIN Zeta = 58. 10% is 5.8, rounded to 6. BRD Zeta = 52, 6 less.

Fast forward.

NIN Law = 67. 10% is 6.7, round to 7. BRD Law = 60.

NIN Hive = 72. 10% is 7.2, rounded down to 7. BRD Hive = 65.

The longer the game goes, the more of a gap there is. When NIN has weapons 76-85, BRD will then be 8 points behind. When NIN has 86-95, BRD will be 9 points behind. The higher the weapon damage goes, the less relative damage a Bard can do.

Did you not know of this fact? It's pretty basic Bard knowledge. That means that about 10% of the boost of WM is spent just catching up to melee's weapon damage. That leaves 20%, so basically a Ninja's poison. Except it also adds cast times and Bards have lower potency average and no self-damage buffs like DE.

Anyways, tank weapons are equal in weapon damage to melee DPS. They get a hit of 25% while tanking. So what would be so game-breaking about taking that 10% from Bard weapons and moving it to a 25% penalty when supporting, just like how tanks have equal weapon damage normally but 25% less when supporting?

They are pretty much 100% set on their opinion, as wrong as it may be, and they will not care what you say.

So... the same thing for both sides, then?

I'm actually perfectly willing to accept I'm wrong... if I'm proven wrong. However...

dire ramifications for the entire game balance.

Such as?

Nobody's given me an answer as to what the "dire ramifications" would be if the 10% weapon damage nerf was moved to the song penalty.

Apparently they're super dire and super game destroying, yet nobody can actually say what it would be.

Are you able to? This is your chance to make me admit I'm wrong about how game-destroying it would be.

[Leonus]

stuff.

I do not believe the peircing/slashing/blunt debuff is a flat 10% damage increase. Or atleast, I remember people pointing it out in the old ninja guide.

[Aiselia]

I do not believe the peircing/slashing/blunt debuff is a flat 10% damage increase. Or atleast, I remember people pointing it out in the old ninja guide.

If you're referring to my example math with the "1000 DPS each" thing, that was all just examples using round numbers for simplicity's sake, not necessarily accuracy.

However, you quoted a post where I only mentioned the slash debuff as an additional DPS increase that Ninjas can do for themselves and didn't give a value to, so I'm not sure what you are referring to.

[Leonus]

If you're referring to my example math with the "1000 DPS each" thing, that was all just examples using round numbers for simplicity's sake, not necessarily accuracy.

However, you quoted a post where I only mentioned the slash debuff as an additional DPS increase that Ninjas can do for themselves and didn't give a value to, so I'm not sure what you are referring to.

Nah, just pointing that out. I just don't want anyone thinking it's a flat 10%.

Other than that, I enjoy reading you and other people's debates, even though you and I are on opposite sides of it.

[Minorinz]

Actually, if you read the quote you posted, healer DPS isn't taken into the calculations...

Did you even read the part where I said it was optional dps for dungeons? Skipping context for your own convenience is quite over the top, I must say this is sad. The best part is I have to repeat it over until it sticks, sigh.

If you read the article I linked which I doubt you did, Yoshi talks about how healers boost the dps output when people are challenging new content. In the case of raid content, healer's dps is absolutely a huge boost not because the party is not preforming well but because the whole party is actually under geared which was the case for T13. I'm not surprised that you are clueless about this, nothing new.

You are saying it's elementary school math?!?!?! I guess that means SE needs some serious help with their staff to be missing such a chunk of WD without any notice?!?! Shame on them. Except it's not. Although I'm curious to why they are scaling weapon damage differently for bard and ninja. I think at this point adding boost weapon damage will change things about bard because weapon damage doesn't work as a straight 10% damage buff as WM. Not surprised that you thought it was really.


The best quote ever!

And I play a Bard and know how high it can be.

I didn't say it was super low. I said it shouldn't be balanced around a minority of the game.

Thank god mission accomplished. In this case I want a summoner buff please. Also a monk buff. While you are at it please buff machinists. I've seen badly played jobs so can we please buff them and balance them all because they are the majority of the playerbase?

That logic though. Still not surprised, although it is funny. Thank you!

[Aiselia]

If you read the article I linked which I doubt you did

I did read it. He clearly states repeatedly that they don't take into account healer damage when designing the things.

As such, "Healer damage" is not important if you're doing it the right way, which includes gear.

I never said healers don't do damage ever. I said that healers have to heal, so I don't consider Foe's as "always useful" for them because they're not going to be always attacking, and certainly not for the minute-straight that Foe's can be up, unless the Tank is significantly over-geared for the dungeon or incredible at damage mitigation.

Or if it's a SCH in a low level dungeon, but you wouldn't have Foe's there anyways.

After all, that was about the use of Bard songs in non-Raids compared to other class' utilities. Remember?

You are saying it's elementary school math?!?!?!

Well yes. Around here, at least, we learned that if something is at 100 and another thing is at 90, then that second thing is 10% lower than the thing at 100.

You seemed to be lost on the concept that BRD/MCH weapons have lower weapon damage than every other physical class.

Not surprised that you thought it was really.

This loses a lot of sting when it's coming from someone who apparently didn't even know about the weapon damage difference.

Anyways, this is my last post here because of several reasons, not the least of which is the straying from the actual topic.

But also because you're not even paying attention to what I'm talking about before going on irrelevant tangents about raids, so... no point.

The right way? I don't know what game you're playing, but the ffxiv I play; the off-tank and 2nd healer (SCH) have huge dps uptime.

I don't know what forum you're reading, but the post I made, I didn't say anything about having DPS uptime.

I said healer DPS wasn't taken into consideration when designing encounters, and therefore is, if everything else is "correct", bonus, not needed, which was proven correct by the interview that somebody thought was proving me wrong.

I believe the concept that the lower weapon damage of BRD/MCH doesn't actually mean they do largely lower DPS in real fights is lost on you, before talking about Foe's/Hypercharge.

I didn't say they do.

You'd think at some point, people might notice that I'm not saying they're largely lower. At least not at this point. I think the concept of "reading what someone's saying" is lost on a lot of the anti-bards.

However, we are still at the beginning of this expansion, of course. Time will pass, the gap will grow as stronger weapons get introduced.