Astrologian buffs confirmed

[SuzakuCMX]

Considering I already said AST needs to stand as a healer first, show some class and stop dogpiling.

Why do you feel the need to construct strawmans for every response to your posts and vaguely insult Cynfael? You are terrible at trying to have a meaningful discussion about class balance because you nitpick irrelevant details. Please just give up on arguing these points if you aren't going to try to defend them properly and stop responding to thread.

[GideonHighmourn]

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There have been several unique and logical viewpoints presented in this thread and others related to balancing in the Healers sub-forum; some of them have even changed my own viewpoints on balance and game play in general. I very much enjoy conversation and discussion about class balance; there have been a few times when we've been at slight odds, SuzakuCMX, but we almost always discuss and not argue through meaningless and pedantic nitpicking. I have tremendous respect for people who can be civil about debate and discussion; however, I've given up trying to hold conversations with people who just argue (rather than discuss and present information) for the sake of arguing.

[Rahaya]

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My apologies to Cynfael if I caused any offense. My irritation at having conceded points ignored bubbled over. 'Dogpiling' was not in response to him personally, but in general. Don't post before morning coffee folks. And no, I will not stop responding.

AST as a healer needs to be fixed, full stop. It currently has very lackluster cooldowns and is not as well rounded as it should be. I have said this. I do not claim to 'beat' RNG, but rather work with it. Trial runs with the AST aiming for an effect for each boss such as Aoe Balance, with two - three minutes between bosses I have discovered that I am mostly able to provide a consistent result. It's how I speed up doing my roulettes currently.

There are two parts to the card system. The card themselves, and the manipulating of them. The first part needs minor, if any changes and apparently I have argued that poorly. The second part, the RNG and the use of cooldowns such as Shuffle and Spread could use help. Shuffle shouldn't draw the same card and can stand to have a shorter cooldown. Spread is very good, but really needs to have the 'in combat' restriction removed. I feel that a lot of the suggestions for balance in this thread go too far in the other direction. Reason being, the cards shouldn't be 'making up' for lackluster healing because they really can't. Cards to compete with songs as well as boost raid damage with reliability would mean the AST would essentially boot the BRDs and MCH out of the raid composition. I highly doubt SE would allow that, and it still doesn't answer that dead dps = 0 dps. To get the full use of Spear currently, communication is needed. That seems less of a problem to me with a raid group as that communication should already be happening, and while it doesn't do *nothing* tossing it on a random, it isn't being utilized to its fullest.

The suggestions seem to run in the vein of 'fix the CDs' (yes, they do need fixing), 'mana management' (which may go with the first as the WHM Tetragammaton and Assize are CDs that offer healing for no mana cost of help get mana back as examples), reduce card RNG (more reliable effects) and then buff the cards themselves. My argument is the card effects for at least 3/6 are equivalent to existing abilities. Balance, Arrow, Bole. Making them more reliable would be nice, but a card can also be drawn every thirty seconds. The CD for Rampart, for example, is 90 seconds. A belief is that Enhanced Royal Road is barely worth it, since you are burning another card to get the effect. Making it 'worth it' for burning the card, and increased reliability on drawing the card in the first place...basically gives AST Rampart every 60 seconds minimum. I don't think, currently, that the other two healers have something like that in their individual toolkits save for a crit Adlo, and *that* is RNG based.

That is the reason why I kept reiterating the cards short cooldown. That has been missed. In order to rework the card system so that we can draw X card right when we want to, I think it would be too unbalanced to keep the thirty second draw, minute Royal Road. The proposed refresh changes to Spire and Ewer would have to still be pretty insignificant. Goad has three minutes and for the BRD and MCH, they lose to use theirs. They also have to wait for MP return to use it again, with the opportunity cost of Foes/Hypercharge as well. The AST using a RR 1 minute TP card would cost them very little.

Either we end up with 6 buttons per card to press for the reliability of the buffs to compete, or...there really is no or. Apparently, the RNG alone is too much regardless. Boosting the cards, to remove the 'sting' of RNG, well, how much of a boost do the cards need? It sounds like they need to be monstrous, because reliable will always win out. And if its reliable, aren't the cards as is enough? I think SE should focus it's attention more on fixing the stances and doing more with the Sects and shoring up the healing. The cards would end up more like the fairy for SCH. Instead of 2/3 buffs locked to a particular summon (and costly to change out), it has 6 base buffs thirty seconds to a minute between usage. The cards are cool, but they are a gimmick. The AST's core concept is filling in the space next to a WHM or a SCH, and it should do that better. Not the cards.

Is this said better?

[Cynfael]

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This viewpoint and tone I can relate to a bit better.

Taken in the context of not wanting the cards to be considered as part of AST's core, your seeming reluctance to see the card effects buffed up makes better sense.

I can't speak for everyone in this thread, but I address the ways in which the cards are lacking because I look at cards as part of AST's core mechanic that differentiate it from the other healers. Ideally I would like to see more improvements that allow the AST to be competitive with SCH and WHM without borrowing exclusively from both of their toolboxes, and a more consistently impactful card system is one possible way to accomplish that. Simply tweaking Spire, Spear, and Ewer to provide some appreciable benefit regardless of party comp and communication level would be a huge start (I'm actually fine with Bole remaining situational or RR fodder if the other three get some attention).

I do hear your point about the low CD of Draw. Unfortunately what often happens now is that you get frequent access to buffs that you can get little or no use out of due to how the cards are designed (as above). I think your notion of the cards as separate from the core of AST is an interesting one and not without merit, but personally I do get tired of drawing Spire and Ewer when I have no need of them or having no use for Spear when it comes up after everyone appears to have blown their major CDs.

[RichardButte]

My apologies to Cynfael if I caused any offense. My irritation at having conceded points ignored bubbled over. 'Dogpiling' was not in response to him personally, but in general. Don't post before morning coffee folks. And no, I will not stop responding.

It's hard to read emotion online, but I'd usually say to read everything with a neutral tone. I've been on the receiving end of "dogpiling", but you have to remember that just because people disagree with you doesn't mean they're genuinely mad at you or anything. I'm sure not upset with you and certainly won't let the discussion effect how I respond to you in the future.

I plan to play as much AST as possible in endgame and see how it feels, and I hope SE can find a good place for the class (I think they will).

[Rahaya]

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I got the viewpoint from SE's response, actually. Lightspeed is its own pile of troubles, but Celestial Opposition and Collective Unconscious were confirmed to be buffed in an 'astrologian' like way. And further, that means enhanced effects with the Sects. If the cards were intended to be a core mechanic, then presumably, the changes would instead interact a lot more with card buffs instead. Off the top of my head, granting the Bole card to everyone in range, or adding additional healing to party members with beneficial effects on them, or something.

The tweaks to those cards would be interesting, but would it really change anything? Spire being a TP refresh would still be a throw away card in a mage heavy party. The full duration of that card right now is 100-150 TP saved I think, without anything else on it. Changing that to a flat 150 TP refresh leaves it open to overticking like Goad currently is if drawn at a bad time, but is still 'worthless' if the target doesn't need TP anyway. Same for the MP card. DRK Darkside makes them immune to MP refresh affects. The current Ewer is capable of bypassing that. The only one getting appreciable benefit then is the Spear change, but aside from the opener, the benefit would still be staggered. For example, on the MCH, it would reduce the CD of the Reload I just used, but Raging Strikes coming up after the effect wears off is SoL.

You would still have no need of them then, I feel. You would still not want to draw them in favor of the better cards. That's why I don't think any change to the cards but overbuffing them and leaving healing weaker would suffice. And at that point, AST might as well be a Support DPS because even with the DPS buffs, why would you bring it over the healing safety?

[Cynfael]

I got the viewpoint from SE's response, actually. Lightspeed is its own pile of troubles, but Celestial Opposition and Collective Unconscious were confirmed to be buffed in an 'astrologian' like way. And further, that means enhanced effects with the Sects. If the cards were intended to be a core mechanic, then presumably, the changes would instead interact a lot more with card buffs instead. Off the top of my head, granting the Bole card to everyone in range, or adding additional healing to party members with beneficial effects on them, or something.

The tweaks to those cards would be interesting, but would it really change anything? Spire being a TP refresh would still be a throw away card in a mage heavy party. The full duration of that card right now is 100-150 TP saved I think, without anything else on it. Changing that to a flat 150 TP refresh leaves it open to overticking like Goad currently is if drawn at a bad time, but is still 'worthless' if the target doesn't need TP anyway. Same for the MP card. DRK Darkside makes them immune to MP refresh affects. The current Ewer is capable of bypassing that. The only one getting appreciable benefit then is the Spear change, but aside from the opener, the benefit would still be staggered. For example, on the MCH, it would reduce the CD of the Reload I just used, but Raging Strikes coming up after the effect wears off is SoL.

You would still have no need of them then, I feel. You would still not want to draw them in favor of the better cards. That's why I don't think any change to the cards but overbuffing them and leaving healing weaker would suffice. And at that point, AST might as well be a Support DPS because even with the DPS buffs, why would you bring it over the healing safety?

I don't think that the popular suggestion to add TP and MP refresh to Spire and Ewer is the correct fix, no. You're right; we would continue to feed them to Royal Road or attempt to Shuffle them out about as frequently as we already do. It's too bad that they are in the same pool with cards like Balance and Arrow, because I doubt anyone would complain if they were regular CDs rather than cards. As you've pointed out, both cards DO have their uses; it's drawing them when you have no use for them that is such a letdown.

When I consider how SE designed AST, I get that feeling of an itch that isn't quite scratched. They really did a nice job of trying to introduce a third healer that is viable, yet of a different flavor than the other two, and the cards are admittedly difficult to balance since RNG plays a major role in how they are used. Of course, if other aspects of AST become compelling enough (e.g. Celestial Opposition, Collective Unconscious, Lightspeed, and arguably the entire Nocturnal Sect being made more fun and useful), the playerbase might be less pissed on those days when it seems that Spire is the only card RNGesus wishes to grant.

[DarkmoonVael]

When I consider how SE designed AST, I get that feeling of an itch that isn't quite scratched. They really did a nice job of trying to introduce a third healer that is viable, yet of a different flavor than the other two, and the cards are admittedly difficult to balance since RNG plays a major role in how they are used. Of course, if other aspects of AST become compelling enough (e.g. Celestial Opposition, Collective Unconscious, Lightspeed, and arguably the entire Nocturnal Sect being made more fun and useful), the playerbase might be less pissed on those days when it seems that Spire is the only card RNGesus wishes to grant.

My feeling on this is that a mistake has been made by SE with AST by not making it a unique healer in its own right. The way AST heals should be unique in the same way that WHM and SCH have very unique healing abilities that differentiate them from one another. What we have instead is slightly-worse-WHM-sect and slightly-worse-SCH-stance. Synestry is unique, but it doesnt realy differentiate enough in terms of healing from WHM/SCH. Having front loaded healing with aspected benefic is also not enough; SCH has been doing this since 2.0.

The card system should compliment a unique healing style to enforce the identity of AST, and not be, as it seems right now, the sole focus of AST uniqueness. Rahaya has made a very good point above, one which i have been talking in game about myself: for the card system to be truely impactful on the game, it needs to offer the same level of support as a MCH/BRD does, thus giving the group the choice of taking one of three support jobs, those being MCH, BRD or AST. If you take AST, you free up a dps slot for a harder hitting dps class, thus helping to mitigate AST inability to dps really in a raid. However, i doubt SE will ever make it the case where you get to chosse between AST, MCH and BRD for support; this being the case, AST really needs to be made a highly competant healer in its own rights, and one that bring a unique healing style into a raid group.

[Rahaya]

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The main reason why I think Spire/Ewer are fine effect wise is that it is percentage based. It is super useful on allowing more Ruin III outside of Dreadwyrm Trance or the hefty cost of Dark Arts as the 20% is a greater number with the larger cost, its drawing them for that time that's up in the air. However, I think they are decent enough to be tossed on whenever because while there is 'non-optimal' times, there is rarely 'non-beneficial' times, if that makes sense. I don't think they can ever be 100% useful all the time without retooling them altogether.

Here are my ideas for reworking Astrologian's healing set: Benefic I should be a strong but short duration HoT (say three ticks, 3kish each) instead with a Thunder-esque proc system for Aspected Benefic. In Diurnal, the proc front loads all the healing the HoTs would have done with its own crit chance, and then the HoT. In Nocturnal, still instant cast but also no mana cost and the ability to 'rewind' by refreshing the shield when it's broken. Benefic II remains mostly the same as the big direct heal bomb with a similar Cure II -> Cure III for making Helios half cost and instant. Aspected Helios remains the same.

Time Dilation works like the Nocturnal Aspected proc. Instead of 'adding' seconds to the effect, it 'resets' the effect. So HoTs once they end have their original duration back, and shields replace themselves. That adds some more utility with Aspected Benefic in Nocturnal as you can get the effect without the proc, but if you do get the proc, you can potentially get a third free shield with a bit of timing.

Lightspeed would be a spellspeed buff, actually changing the stat allowing Benefic I and Diurnal HoTs to tick stronger and cast everything else faster. Collective Unconscious doesn't root. Incoming damage is either reactively healed in pulses Diurnal or our bubble is an AoE Manawall/ward that absorbs a certain amount of damage and lets the rest through Nocturnal. Celestial Opposition is the worst named skill ever for what it currently does. Instead, it should oppose fate. Super long cooldown, it is our Benediction. A short buff that rejects death and heals the target when triggered. I don't know what a good percentage would be. 50% of max hp?

Essential Dignity and Synastry remains the same (except Synasty works with Benefic I HoT). Benefic I would cost more than it currently does to make up for it being a HoT and you can still hardcast everything else, but the proc system allows for some reprieve from mana costs. What do you think?

[Alahra]

The main reason why I think Spire/Ewer are fine effect wise is that it is percentage based. It is super useful on allowing more Ruin III outside of Dreadwyrm Trance or the hefty cost of Dark Arts as the 20% is a greater number with the larger cost, its drawing them for that time that's up in the air.

I'll definitely agree when it comes to Ewer. It's actually much better than Spire as there are three classes that get a huge benefit from it (DRK, BLM, SMN), *and* we can use it to shore up mana issues either for ourselves or the other healer in an 8-man setting. It's probably ultimately fine, though it's still frustrating to draw in a party without any of those classes.

Spire, on the other hand, really doesn't have any sort of impact that can compare to Ewer's. TP usage doesn't really work the same way as MP usage does, in that there is an upper bound to how much TP weaponskills cost, and it is assumed generally that melee classes are always using their TP to the maximum. While it's true that TP usage can be an issue for tanks and melee in longer fights, cooldowns like Goad or TP regen from BRD/MCH are significantly more useful precisely because you have *control* over when to use them. In fights where they aren't necessary, you don't have to worry about them. But an AST might find herself with tons of Spire on a fight with numerous phase jumps (such as A1) and ultimately get very little out of them. That's not particularly satisfying gameplay. Having the choice to use TP regen abilities when necessary is a lot different from having it thrust upon you and having no use for it repeatedly.