Fending vs. Slaying accessories at this point in the game

[Yorumi]

Try tanking Bahamut synched, without echo, I dare you relying on parry for the mitigation. Every MT would ensure he is going to survive Flatten with or without parry, and every healer would ensure the tank is topped off before the triple flare breath.

Can we stop with the straw man arguments and stop trying to turn this into some kind of us vs them garbage. No one is suggesting relying on parrying tank busters to survive, no one. The question is about what is best for the over all party. How best to spread stats out. There are choices to be made everywhere, and so far no one has provided anything solid to actual discuss. No math, no weights, nothing. My question still hasn't been addressed regarding melded accessories. This game runs on math and formulas, there shouldn't be a need for this level of emotion discussion about this subject. It's worth knowing all the information about this.

[SpookyGhost]

Determination gives linear STR increase and has no reliance on RNG, so it is therefore the best secondary stat.

Crit has reliance on RNG, but the damage you get from the extra crit rate will always matter.

Parry will sometimes, maybe, if you're lucky, parry a tank buster and maybe, sometimes, if you're lucky your healer won't just overheal you.

Skill Speed is good for WAR (9 GCD Berserk = linear DPS increase), but not so great for DRK/PLD.

There ya go.

[rawker]

I could argue that SS not good on PLD. I mean, we may have our stun readily available all the time but we're gated by it being on GCD. mind you, i've played the other 2 tanks and so far, i am spoiled by them in terms of using stuns to interrupt in the middle of the current action i am doing. By having respectable amounts of SS, a PLD can be able to interrupt more reliably.

[Abbul_Stonecleaver]

hahaha fine. I will take my mediocre build and continue to be thanked by the healers I meet for not being retarded. I will continue to perform my job better than those who apparently have superior builds.

If you would humor me for a moment, how about you do a quick google search and find me some definitive theorycrafting regarding this topic. Because every time I search, all the links I find point to discussions that prove you wrong. However, for the last 8 months, there have been no discussions. No new theorycrafting that I can find. It's as if everyone just woke up one morning and said... You know what? Let's all hate parry now.

Please link me the enlightened in depth old elitist-jerks forums level of theorycrafting that proves you right and me wrong. I will wait.

Not being retarded? Might wanna tone down your undeserved arrogance a bit.

[Myric]

just keep both and adjust on a per party basis. why is this such a big deal? if anything, just keep blaming SE and maybe there will be some parry or other defensive change so we just wear fending and that's it. I'd like to see parry give ripostes also or something like that. Would increase damage output while wearing fending. Like my shadow knight in everquest, the more I pull, the more ripostes, the more damage output. Swarming was so much fun.

[Asierid]

Can we stop with the straw man arguments and stop trying to turn this into some kind of us vs them garbage. No one is suggesting relying on parrying tank busters to survive, no one. The question is about what is best for the over all party. How best to spread stats out. There are choices to be made everywhere, and so far no one has provided anything solid to actual discuss. No math, no weights, nothing. My question still hasn't been addressed regarding melded accessories. This game runs on math and formulas, there shouldn't be a need for this level of emotion discussion about this subject. It's worth knowing all the information about this.

There is plenty of math on this forum about how much parry sucks and that was in 2.0. It's even worse now that it only mitigates 20% with no way to boost it. Other than that, nothing has changed.

[SeraviEdalborez]

To the opposition: I'm not sure why the burden of proof is on the "meld people" or "STR people" to prove VIT or parry is unnecessary. Clearly we can function, even thrive, without it. Why don't those of you who think Parry/VIT is so invaluable try to quantify it yourselves?

If I could get 120 str for 5 vit? How do I get this? Full 150 accessories would net me a loss of 30 vit provided I cap it, which would require FOUR vitality four materia in each to cap the vit. No thanks. Even if it was presented to me, 30 vit? That's around 600 health. If STR still increased block and parry amounts, sure. I might. But that is a whole lot of money for a whole lot of pretty sure do not want. In addition, it's ONLY a 30 vit loss because I only have 1 alex accessory, because I went for my belt/head/boots first due to the defense increase. As I acquire more alex accessories (2 next and the final the week after) This will be a loss of... 45 vit? If my math is right. No thank you.

i190 VIT: 200 VIT
(40 VIT per acc, ignoring that you can't have a 2nd i190 VIT ring yet)

i190 STR: 200 STR
40 STR per acc, as above disclaimer)

i150 meld (capped VIT): 155 STR, 145 VIT
(31 STR, 29 VIT per acc, most slots taken by VIT [VIT4 x4, or VIT4 x3 with 2 VIT3's])

i150 meld (moderate VIT, recommended): 155 STR, 120 VIT
(24 VIT per acc, VIT4 VIT4 VIT4, with 2 blank spots)

"Moderate" i150 trades about 1500 HP for 155 STR, compared to i190 VIT. This is what I personally use and advocate, as you have slightly more wiggle room for secondary melds.

1500 HP isn't insignificant, but if you think it's an open and shut decision to max VIT you're being complacent or uninformed.

[Disc]

hahaha fine. I will take my mediocre build and continue to be thanked by the healers I meet for not being retarded. I will continue to perform my job better than those who apparently have superior builds.

If you would humor me for a moment, how about you do a quick google search...

Please link me the enlightened in depth old elitist-jerks forums level of theorycrafting that proves you right and me wrong. I will wait.

My parry rate varies from 7-9% in a fight, with 20% damage mitigated. At best that's (.09*.2)(100)= 1.8% damage mitigated. If I could somehow double my parry I would still only reduce damage by an additional 1.8%. This is in part due to the way block is checked before parry.

For WAR/DRK the parry rate jumps to about 23%, same 20% damage mitigated. (.23*.20)(100)= 4.6% damage mitigated. Again, even if you managed to double your parry rate you would see less than a 5% difference in total mitigation.

[Zfz]

I'd just like to point out that having 1500 extra HP is like having a consistent 1500 HP damage absorption shield. Because overhealing is done regardless of how much HP you have. Actually, isn't it so that the less HP you have, the more overhealing there tends to be? Having more HP means more of that overhealing is turned into useful HP to absorb the next hit.

It's interesting to see how tank gearing in FFXIV is so radically different from some other games where tanks work their hardest to get even that 1% more mitigation to minimize the possibility of the worst case scenario. Tanks used to gear for the worst case scenario, things like back-to-back crits, tank buster followed immediately by an auto-attack crit, healers getting tied up and unable to heal for another 2 seconds, etc.

But in FFXIV, tanks seem to gear for the best-case scenario, i.e. healers always performing their best and always able to heal you up to full (i.e. the claim that there's always overhealing), you always time your cooldowns properly, you don't "need" the buffer health if your "good enough".

If you gear for best-case scenario, you gear for STR. If you gear for worst-case scenario, you gear for VIT. If you want middle ground and have the money, you overmeld and get quantitatively more overall benefit. It doesn't really sound that bad.

-=-=-=-=-

Lastly, I'd just like to present this thought for the "faster kill argument".

Unless you're hitting enrage timers, a few seconds faster kill isn't "needed", it's useless, in the same way that you don't "need" that extra 1500 HP unless you're dying. The only time STR is "useful" is when you are hitting enrage timers or when that little bit of tank dps gain pushes a phase such that you avoid some critical boss ability---and in those situations, then yes you want to gear for STR to contribute whatever little bit of dps you can, simply because you would wipe otherwise.

In any other situation, that extra dps simply doesn't matter. It's as much e-peen as is higher HP.

[Syzygian]

found this. old but relevant: http://phalanx-regalia.enjin.com/for...r-construction

"Passive Mitigation from Blocks and Parries do matter, are quantifiable for the overall, incoming sustained damage they mitigate and should never be overlooked or under-appreciated without the use of passive mitigation you're passing all that damage directly onto your healers to answer for. This damage is not "Fluff" damage and is not just healed over blindly by passive HoTs or regular Cure/Physic spam... ...Your healers could be doing far more useful things, while obviously your healers won't anticipate passive mitigation, ...they notice the difference in incoming damage or will respond differently to the general sense of the incoming damage, especially if it is lower in on the whole...

It is the responsibility of the healers to also maximize their own potential, that means they need to gauge, asses and predict the incoming damage so that they can make the best use of their GCDs and MP. If you are taking less overall sustained damage they will know it and and be able to monopolize on the opportunities it presents. In place of those unnecessary heals; be doing DPS, Utility, Mechanics or Keeping other party members besides the Tank alive. If you are making the argument that the healers are just expected to overheal all the damage that would have happened anyway if the mitigation wasn't present, that is an argument based on the assumption that your healers are fucking bad.

Lastly it is the Methodology of a Tank to facilitate the maximum potential of all of your other party members, by understanding their needs and using that knowledge and the utilities of your class you are meant to and expected to make that happen. If you are gimping your ability to deal with incoming damage on your end, you are forcing your healers to be answerable for it on theirs. This is contradictory to what the role of a tank is and what they are designed mechanically to do.

If you are disallowing any of your party members to meet their full potential because you are not meeting your own, you are forcing them to focus on you, or you do not understand their needs and how you can help them fulfill them them you are doing an extreme disservice to your raid group."

I like getting hit by shit that would wipe the rest of the party and barely batting an eye. Tanking is awesome