We should have a "Lance mage", "Ninja Sword mage", "Fist mage"

[Snugglebutt]

You are saying for NIN to be able to get the 30% damage buff they must lose 40% overall DPS? Am I reading that properly? If so, BRD did not lose no where near 40% of its DPS.

Bard has a lower baseline DPS output compared to most other DPS classes which WM partially was to offset by increasing that baseline by 30% while under WM.

The original person said "So getting +30% more damage to do what I'm already doing? Sign me the frick up!", it would not be accurate way to compare bard with WM. Just throwing a 30% buff on other classes would throw balance out the window unless those classes are counter balanced. If use another DPS class and just plopped on WM style buff like lets say ninja or monk, mage or dragoon as examples the classes would need a baseline DPS decrease to make it comparable to what a bard with WM is capable of and if was to have 30% WM style buff to another DPS classes current potential damage output then to make the comparison more equal he would need to increase the buff achieved on bard WM to compensate or decrease their own to bring it more inline. That was what I was trying to say. Bard already had a lower DPS output potential which is why the 30% buff from WM did not and has not overpowered the class.

[Snowaeth]

You are saying for NIN to be able to get the 30% damage buff they must lose 40% overall DPS? Am I reading that properly? If so, BRD did not lose no where near 40% of its DPS.

Tell me again what the trade offs on Kiss of the Viper's 20% dmg increase are for Ninja?

Was just wondering. Especially with people that were saying that WM pre 30% was fine at 20% - auto's - mobility +3sec toggle.

[Tila]

Tell me again what the trade offs on Kiss of the Viper's 20% dmg increase are for Ninja?

Was just wondering. Especially with people that were saying that WM pre 30% was fine at 20% - auto's - mobility +3sec toggle.

Ninja is a melee with positionals. What further trade off is needed? They are in a less safe environment and are more prone to periods of not being able to do anything than range classes, and due to having to be in constant motion while keeping up with postionals, and maintaining buffs/debuffs have a harder time keeping up with a rotation.

[Ephier]

Bard has a lower baseline DPS output compared to most other DPS classes which WM partially was to offset by increasing that baseline by 30% while under WM.

The original person said "So getting +30% more damage to do what I'm already doing? Sign me the frick up!", it would not be accurate way to compare bard with WM. Just throwing a 30% buff on other classes would throw balance out the window unless those classes are counter balanced. If use another DPS class and just plopped on WM style buff like lets say ninja or monk, mage or dragoon as examples the classes would need a baseline DPS decrease to make it comparable to what a bard with WM is capable of and if was to have 30% WM style buff to another DPS classes current potential damage output then to make the comparison more equal he would need to increase the buff achieved on bard WM to compensate or decrease their own to bring it more inline. That was what I was trying to say. Bard already had a lower DPS output potential which is why the 30% buff from WM did not and has not overpowered the class.

That makes more sense, was an honest question cause I was not sure how to read that.

Tell me again what the trade offs on Kiss of the Viper's 20% dmg increase are for Ninja?

Was just wondering. Especially with people that were saying that WM pre 30% was fine at 20% - auto's - mobility +3sec toggle.

Just so you know I main MCH and was one of the main people complaining about gauss barrel and how it needed a buff which would in tandem directly affect WM as shown when both got buffed side by side.

[Snowaeth]

Ninja is a melee with positionals. What further trade off is needed? They are in a less safe environment and are more prone to periods of not being able to do anything than range classes, and due to having to be in constant motion while keeping up with postionals, and maintaining buffs/debuffs have a harder time keeping up with a rotation.

Please do name me these less safe environments inside raids, heck even primals, in which melee's are finding themselves that do not affect ranged players equally or even more if they have to cast cancel.
Not really interested in hearing basic open world stuff, normal dungeons as that's faceroll content for pretty much anyone and anything.

[Snugglebutt]

Ninja is a melee with positionals. What further trade off is needed? They are in a less safe environment and are more prone to periods of not being able to do anything than range classes, and due to having to be in constant motion while keeping up with postionals, and maintaining buffs/debuffs have a harder time keeping up with a rotation.

As I said earlier I play ninja and monk and will say I do not consider that true. Firstly there are not a vast amount of large circle AoE's centered around the bosses which require dodging, there are occasional ones but most of the time it is line or cone AoE's that is facing away from the DPS thanks to the tanks positioning and management unless they are a bad tank. Melee do have to occasionally run out and back in from the boss AoE's but it is nowhere near the level you make it out to be of which I know this as fact as someone who plays both monk and ninja plus bard. There are not a vast amount of large 360 AoE's on all bosses, if anything there are more frontal and ranged AoE's to dodge which melees do not have to worry about (some exceptions depending on which boss).

It is true positionals require a lot of movement but that movement is not very far in distance from their original spot, moving from back to side takes a normally like a second roughly. The beauty of positionals however is it is boss focused, your not staring at your shortcut bars in order to make use of such and your rotation (while more complex than bard 2.0, I would argue less than bard 3.0) is admittedly slightly complex due to making optimal use of positionals...in my experience it does not require changing your LoS much to your shortcut bars to manage them. I consider that a benefit and why I will probably make my ninja or monk my next main. I do not dislike monks or ninjas even taking into account positionals, I just preferred bard prior to the current play style change SE forced upon the class.

[Leonus]

Please do name me these less safe environments inside raids, heck even primals, in which melee's are finding themselves that do not affect ranged players equally or even more if they have to cast cancel.
Not really interested in hearing basic open world stuff, normal dungeons as that's faceroll content for pretty much anyone and anything.

Do you want to start in 2.x? Or just 3.0, because there is a lot actually.

Edit: this is a serious question. I'd say blm is more negatively affected by having to move than smn or brd/mch. I can list things but I'm genuinely asking.

[Snowaeth]

Do you want to start in 2.x? Or just 3.0, because there is a lot actually.

Start wherever you want.

Edit: this is a serious answer I ll gladly hear about all the hardships of you having to press 123 145 6 while taking two steps to the left or right.

[Snugglebutt]

Do you want to start in 2.x? Or just 3.0, because there is a lot actually.

Edit: this is a serious question.

Feel free to list them all, all the 360 circular AoE's that centered on bosses which for the most part are really the only major ones melee's need to avoid. Cone and line AoE's coming direct from boss should most often be facing away from the DPS unless the tank is not doing a good job plus the line ones ranged classes also tend to need to avoid.

Most of those boss centric AoE's do not need to be dodged unless a melee is for some reason standing in front of the boss which they should not be. Add up all the boss centered 360 AoE's that only melee have to dodge and then add up all the ranged AoE's, I think you'll find more ranged AoE's than boss centered 360 ones which require the melee's running away from boss.

On your latter added point about BLM's, I agree they have harder time dodging AoE's but they do a crap load more damage to make up for it than bard. I personally wouldn't want to play a BLM or SMN partially because of that mobility limitation though SMN I think according to others has more mobility than BLM by a fair amount. My next main now that bard is no longer fun will be either one of my current melee's or maybe a melee class I have yet to try like DRG.

[Cinicus]

If the developer of the game has to nerf a class because "it's too mobile" and can "ignore mechanics" is just crap. Ugh so sad...