Bard and how to fix it.

[RiceisNice]

Good point, it could be made into something that's only the case while under effect of WM to fix this?

Having river of blood work differently under WM can go a long way, not necessarily needing to change how barrage works, whether it be a stacking buff or boosting your next skill in place of the reset.

[Snowaeth]

Added a summary of issues which I am seeing to my 2nd post in the thread.
Added a TL;DR to it since it got lengthy

Gotta get some sleep now, but keep the idea's coming.

[nuyu11]

Hi, this is my personal opinion. From what I have experience, to play Bard on 3.0+ we need stable internet connection, unlike 2.0 Bard is suitable for lag player. Our overall DPS for each boss fight is not much different with other DPS just bit lower but for me still consider high, the problem is we need to press button on time and do not screw the rotation. If we got auto attack and can move while WM is on I think we will be Over Power. But the change that SE made is so drastic and change the play style, 3.0 Bard is hard and not suitable for new player unlike 2.0 Bard that fully recommended for new player, easy to play.

I miss my mobility, I want to move while pew-pew

[Snowaeth]

I would like to hear some more input on the issues bards are running into while using Wanderer's Minuet.
So far what I tried to express in my 2nd post are the issues I picked up spread all over the forum and the ones I'm experiencing myself.

I would still go ahead and say that WM is most likely here to stay.
So lets try to look at the issues that come with the song rather than just saying the song is the issue, since chances are high we won't get rid of it at this point anymore.

I can understand that some of you are not even willing to consider bard with WM on and I am empathizing with you guys.
I am however not able to get as much enjoyment out of any other class as I do out of bard even with these changes it's still the class that appeals to me the most.
So I'm at least trying to look for improvements to the class rather than being stuck with changes I don't like and having these changes come with issues on top of it.

[Duelle]

From an effective dps standpoint, bards seem to be in a pretty good spot right now in terms of actual raids.

And from a design perspective the job's gameplay suffered quite a bit. You can claim that people adjusted to it, and that much is true. Poor implementation remains poor implementation, regardless of whether the players adjusted to it or not. Hence why the OP made this thread.

Since you are asking for explanations, I'll indulge you:

The base design of BRD and WM as implemented clash because cast times and reliance on off-GCD abilities & procs don't mesh well. The intent of the changes also doesn't make much sense, since WM is introduced so late in BRD's relative "life" and implemented in such a ham-fisted way that it doesn't feel like natural growth of the job. It's no surprise that people who are just picking up the job also seem to be saying that the change is too abrupt and feels clunky as hell despite the nice DPS numbers.

If the devs want to stick with WM, then WM has to do more than just add cast times to shots. It has to change procs and other mechanics attached to BRD, maybe even go as far as change the effects of the various shots while active. If they were to do this, then you could see its inclusion as something truly added to the job instead of something tossed in for the sake of introducing change.

If that's not going to happen, then WM has to be reworked to limit its effect on the job's gameplay so that it feels more natural to the job, be redesigned for the purpose of same, or be outright removed and replaced with something else.

The last, and most work-intensive option would be to change the base ARC and BRD mechanics to fit better with WM (as the OP mentioned, removing potency from utility shots and changing the way Bloodletter procs work would go a long away in helping).

[Zazago]

Hi,

If you are a Bard try to join the Raid on Bismark. You are useless DPS compared to Dragoons and Monks. No one needs your songs, and you feel petty for yourself and the Raid leader kicks you out.
The reason is simple the Bard is slow and can't deliver many powerful hits in short time. In high end game the challenge is DPS challenge and Bards fail.
The Wanderer Minutes adds to the pain with the alleged increase in Damage of 30% your skills are slow and you lose movement as you have to stand still.

I suffered in Bismark the humiliation and now I have to dumb this Bard job and start all over making a Dragoon. The solution by the way is simple. return to the Bard his dignity, no one wants his songs. Give him mobility and reduce or eliminate the skill time but keep the 30% damage increase.

I am sure that FF14 knows this and wants to save the BArd job, but they are too slow to respond. how disappointing

[RiceisNice]

The reason is simple the Bard is slow and can't deliver many powerful hits in short time. [/B] In high end game the challenge is DPS challenge and Bards fail.

What? If there's anything BRD/MCH is good at, its burst damage with cooldowns, barrage and empyreal arrow. Hell, bard is probably better in this department because most vulnerbility phases don't give enough time for wildfire to do its job. I've cleared bis as a MCH before 3.01, their dps isn't bad to the point that they should be benched or its hindering progression. I will only agree to the fact that current encounters aren't designed in a way (nor should it to be honest) that TP/MP regen is absolutely required to force you to bring a BRD/MCH, but at the same time a MCH/BRD shouldn't be pigeon holed to naturally dealing less damage because they have those abilities (because you know, they already incur a damage penalty when using them anyway).

And from a design perspective the job's gameplay suffered quite a bit. You can claim that people adjusted to it, and that much is true. Poor implementation remains poor implementation, regardless of whether the players adjusted to it or not. Hence why the OP made this thread.

Since you are asking for explanations, I'll indulge you:

The base design of BRD and WM as implemented clash because cast times and reliance on off-GCD abilities & procs don't mesh well. The intent of the changes also doesn't make much sense, since WM is introduced so late in BRD's relative "life" and implemented in such a ham-fisted way that it doesn't feel like natural growth of the job. It's no surprise that people who are just picking up the job also seem to be saying that the change is too abrupt and feels clunky as hell despite the nice DPS numbers.

If the devs want to stick with WM, then WM has to do more than just add cast times to shots. It has to change procs and other mechanics attached to BRD, maybe even go as far as change the effects of the various shots while active. If they were to do this, then you could see its inclusion as something truly added to the job instead of something tossed in for the sake of introducing change.

If that's not going to happen, then WM has to be reworked to limit its effect on the job's gameplay so that it feels more natural to the job, be redesigned for the purpose of same, or be outright removed and replaced with something else.

The last, and most work-intensive option would be to change the base ARC and BRD mechanics to fit better with WM (as the OP mentioned, removing potency from utility shots and changing the way Bloodletter procs work would go a long away in helping).

Honestly after looking at previews for MCH, I initially thought they were going with them being the stationary ranged DPS, somewhat akin to marksman hunters from WoW. Then they decided to give gauss barrel Wanderer's Minuet for bards because why not. I think these two abilities are the only ones in the game that are functionally exactly the same.

The least intensive work I'd imagine is allowing them to do oGCDs while casting or reworking River of Blood's interaction with WM. Though honestly I wouldn't mind if they rework bard or machinist either, the two have way too similar tool kits and gameflow when WM/GB is considered, with one clearly being designed around it.

[Dervy]

Blood Letter should just operate differently whilst under WM.

If you get a BL proc whilst under WM, your Bard will fire two shots with your next Weaponskill. Potency + BL_potency together.

Alternatively, it could just boost your next skills potency by 150. Easy fix.

Didn't even need a balance check. All you're doing Is shifting the Potency around.

[lugiaXD]

i personally think if they wanted us to seriously be dps they need to remove our support aspects in order to do that dps. for that reason WM should not allow you to play other songs, only give you a 15% dps boost with auto attacks allowed and not get buffed from BV, they should keep all the skills they have currently locked behind WM the same for the purpose of balance but also give us back old barrage when we aren't in it so that when we do go support and take the 15% penalty to our damage we don't feel it as bad.

as i said before when i gave a summary of what exactly i was talking about
Wanderer's Minuet: 3 second cast time
Increases overall damage by 15%, cannot be played with other songs and is unaffected by Battle Voice. effects end upon reuse
Additional effects: Barrage now causes a single target non-critical weapon skill to hit 3 times. can only be applied for one attack.


i do however agree with buffing old barrage so that it makes up for the det changes.

[lugiaXD]

I would like to hear some more input on the issues bards are running into while using Wanderer's Minuet.
So far what I tried to express in my 2nd post are the issues I picked up spread all over the forum and the ones I'm experiencing myself.

I would still go ahead and say that WM is most likely here to stay.
So lets try to look at the issues that come with the song rather than just saying the song is the issue, since chances are high we won't get rid of it at this point anymore.

I can understand that some of you are not even willing to consider bard with WM on and I am empathizing with you guys.
I am however not able to get as much enjoyment out of any other class as I do out of bard even with these changes it's still the class that appeals to me the most.
So I'm at least trying to look for improvements to the class rather than being stuck with changes I don't like and having these changes come with issues on top of it.

this just so much this XD

i personally find that i'm slipping back into my old ways because in a lot of situations it's what's best but i just can't really do it as well as i used to because i'm basically using BL and straighter shot procs as fillers (the former of which is just me being too lazy to turn off wm cast HS and then turn it back on again).

i've found that cutting into my GCDs is often times the best way to keep the skills i want aligned aligned and it feels dirty doing it after what was basically a year of flawless oGCD management and pushing 500 dps with a 125 wep and feeling pretty damn good about myself (for extra info i live in australia playing on gilgamesh so i have inherent latency issues, i've done as much as i can to fix it but being on a ps4 my options are limited, and after basically being shown that i should never be able to dps as well as non-latency players it felt really good to even come close to fellow bards in 2.x now i can physically see just how much my latency screws with me and it's most the reason i didn't switch to ninja, blm or smn because they really aren't lag friendly classes)