Bard and Wanderer's Minuet use it

[Adire]

snip

That ease of access comes at a price, yes. But that price is not justification for everyone to be as selfish as they want. That price is you may meet people you don't like, you may get people who aren't skilled, etc. That price is not "Other people have the right to impose their playstyle onto you and 2 others and you have no right to say anything".

You don't see this sort of toxic thinking on JP servers from what I've heard. People there generally try to contribute, even if they have to do some things they don't like with their job, for the good of the group they're spending their time with. They don't think "me me me, forget the group"

If you want to sabotage your group, maybe you should be the one to try and get a group who likes the idea on PF, because I guarantee you: More people will prefer a bard doing their best and using WM, or at least trying to use it correctly, over one who refuses to because they don't like it and sabotages the group.

If you're going into a dungeon thinking, "I don't like this skill so I'm not using it", you're in the wrong. Think for a moment how that would turn out if every player did this with every job. Please don't advocate intentional group sabotage, and please don't try to advocate censorship of people who have problems with this.

[Reinha]

There is a very similar debate on the healer forums that's been going on for ages. Should healers do dps when they have nothing to heal? Some say no, not if they don't like it because that's not what thy signed up for. Some say yes, to maximize group efficiency and to utilize the whole toolkit of the class. Now lets look at the argument used for the case of WM (not directed at you specifically Adire, just using your post as an example):

If you want to sabotage your group, maybe you should be the one to try and get a group who likes the idea on PF, because I guarantee you: More people will prefer a bard doing their best and using WM, or at least trying to use it correctly, over one who refuses to because they don't like it and sabotages the group.

If you're going into a dungeon thinking, "I don't like this skill so I'm not using it", you're in the wrong. Think for a moment how that would turn out if every player did this with every job. Please don't advocate intentional group sabotage, and please don't try to advocate censorship of people who have problems with this.

One little change and we get:

If you want to sabotage your group, maybe you should be the one to try and get a group who likes the idea on PF, because I guarantee you: More people will prefer a healer doing their best and using dps skills when there's nothing to heal, or at least trying to use them correctly, over one who refuses to because they don't like it and sabotages the group.

If you're going into a dungeon thinking, "I don't like this skill so I'm not using it", you're in the wrong. Think for a moment how that would turn out if every player did this with every job. Please don't advocate intentional group sabotage, and please don't try to advocate censorship of people who have problems with this.

Now you might say, it's a totally different thing because a bard is dps and a healer is a healer. According to Yoshi-P however, bard is actually support: "As for the machinist, its role is similar to that of the Bard that is, support for team members. So compared to a pure DPS as a monk or a ninja course DPS machinist will be lower because their roles are different."

You heard it. Bard's role is different from a pure dps, so requiring them to maximize their dps while supporting is the same thing as requiring a healer to maximize their dps while keeping everyone alive. I wonder if anyone of you complaining about someone not using WM would also complain about healers refusing to use their dps skills, or even go as far as kick such healers? Bear in mind, WM is a MUCH smaller increase than a healer going from 0 to max dps (whilst healing enough). Here's an example of scholar dps in Alexander: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...cause_minions/

[Wizarus]

SNIP

Nope, Bard primary role is DPS, as shown by the DPS marker next to their name. Any Bard not optimizing DPS because "they don't have to" needs to be immediately kicked.

[Reinha]

Nope, Bard primary role is DPS, as shown by the DPS marker next to their name. Any Bard not optimizing DPS because "they don't have to" needs to be immediately kicked.

Yoshi-P disagrees with you. That wasn't my question though... Maybe I should have made my post shorter to get the point through loud and clear. Here, a condensed version:

I wonder if anyone of you complaining about someone not using WM would also complain about healers refusing to use their dps skills, or even go as far as kick such healers?

Just curious if people would treat healers the same or if they have a double standard.

[Malevicton]

Just curious if people would treat healers the same or if they have a double standard.

Stop trying to turn this into a "should healers have to dps" thread. There are too many of those as it is. If you wanna know what people think about that question, go read one of the bazillion threads dedicated to exactly that question. This one has enough distractions as it is.

[Wizarus]

Yoshi-P disagrees with you. That wasn't my question though... Maybe I should have made my post shorter to get the point through loud and clear. Here, a condensed version:



Just curious if people would treat healers the same or if they have a double standard.

This makes zero sense, Healer DPS is not taken into consideration in any content so far. Healers DPSing is a bonus afterthought. Bards DPSing is not a bonus afterthought, and they need to optimize their DPS since they take up a DPS slot. If Wanderer's Minuet increases DPS, you need to be using it.